Friends and Family Cannot Order from my shop

[GoodStuffToGoShop]

My customers-friend and family (not scammers) are getting an error message when trying to checkout that says "Oh Dear. There was a problem submitting your order. Please give it another shot. If you continue to have problems, please contact support. This happened to two separate people trying to order two separate listings last night. tech support called but said they would send to tech support and tech support would email but there is no response today so terrible "support".

[GoodStuffToGoShop]

I meant I sent an email somehow and Etsy called me but then said they would escalate to tech support. not sure how I found an email to etsy to email them again.

[bradgoodell]

Be careful, having friends and family purchasing from your new store could be considered "shilling" by Etsy, and it will get your shop shut down quick.  

My friends and family don't shop at my Etsy shop.  They shop on my website, or contact me directly and I invoice them.  I suggest you do the same.  

[ThePurplePuppy]

@bradgoodell 

Unless someone is using the same IP address how would Etsy know it was friends or family. I mean my sister lives 2000 miles away.  If she purchased something from me (she hasn't) how would Etsy even know we were related?  I am not trying to be snarky--I really would like to know.

All that said this is the second post about this today and in the other several people came on and said they were having the same problem.

I think there is some sort of purchase glitch going on. If Etsy was to remain viable I think they better get on this quick!

[bradgoodell]

@ThePurplePuppy You are likely right.  

[BeaconwoodDettman]

@bradgoodell I'm confused, do you have a reference for where Etsy states that friends and family can't buy from a shop?

My understanding of shilling is that it is related to auctions, and you coordinate with someone - could be anyone - to bid in the auction to artificially inflate the bidding to the seller's advantage. It's illegal in many states. 

I would love to sell my items to friends and family, I think most of us would. 

Again, please share where you found the information you posted. 

[PlatypusDream]

@BeaconwoodDettman 

https://www.etsy.com/legal/policy/shilling/243317364583

There are multiple types of shilling, including, for example, when a seller does the following:

• Has a friend or family member purchase an item and leave a biased, inauthentic, or untruthful positive review.

• Compensates a third party through free or significantly reduced items, samples, cash or other compensation, to purchase and leave a biased, inauthentic or untruthful positive review.

• Opens or uses additional accounts posing as an independent buyer to take inauthentic action on the first account. This could include purchasing an item to leave a review for the first account, deceptively favouriting the first account's shop or listings, upvoting positive reviews on the first account in order to position them more prominently, or taking any other actions to artificially inflate the first shop’s reputation. This is also called “sock puppetry.”

BUT:

"

Transactions between friends and family

Transactions and reviews between friends and family are not considered shilling as long as they reflect the honest, unbiased opinion of the buyer and meet the following criteria:

• The transaction must occur on Etsy.

• The buyer and seller may not share a material connection (such as a shared bank account, credit card or financial interest in the shop being reviewed).

• The buyer must not be paid or otherwise compensated for the review, unless this is available to all buyers (such as a discount offered on next purchase for leaving an honest review).

• The sole purpose of the transaction may not be to leave a review."

[GroundZeroCreations]

On Amazon your family and friends are not allowed to order from you. Your shop can be shut down if they discover that is happening. The reason is because they can leave reviews that may or may not be honest and schew the results to favorable when others may rate it differently.  I don't think I have ever heard Etsy take a position on that topic either way though.

When my friends or family want something I just have them pay me through paypal or venmo. Maybe you should consider doing that. 

[TickleYourWitch]

This is not Amazon.

[GoodStuffToGoShop]

But when I try to order for them Etsy says I can't order from myself. How do they get the things they like from me?

[TickleYourWitch]

@GoodStuffToGoShop 

You can't order from yourself or review your own products for obvious reasons. If they want your stuff, they buy and have it shipped to their house (which is hopefully not the same as your address or you may be violating the policy).

[HazelsSewingSupplies]

"How do they get stuff they like from me"?

I would never let my friends buy from me on Etsy let alone my family!!

If it's my family, any of them can have anything they want from any of my shops - I am not going to charge my grand or great-grandchildren for anything they might see that they want.

As for friends, they buy from me at craft shows, etc.  I tell them that I don't want to pay Etsy fees on anything they buy which will probably be at a reduced price or if it's a gift for their new grandbaby, no price at all.

Whether or not it's shilling, I just don't think Etsy (or any other site) is for selling to family and/or friends.

[TickleYourWitch]

Stop with these alarmist remarks. Many of us got our first sales from friends or family. Here is Etsy's policy on shilling:

Transactions between friends and family

Transactions and reviews between friends and family are not considered shilling as long as they reflect the honest, unbiased opinion of the buyer and meet the following criteria:

• The transaction must occur on Etsy.
• The buyer and seller may not share a material connection (such as a shared bank account, credit card or financial interest in the shop being reviewed).
• The buyer must not be paid or otherwise compensated for the review, unless this is available to all buyers (such as a discount offered on next purchase for leaving an honest review).
• The sole purpose of the transaction may not be to leave a review.

Sure, the last one is a bit iffy. But it can be argued, successfully judging by how often it happens, that the other purpose is to be a supportive friend or family member.

Does anyone have an actual example of someone's shop being shut down because their friend or someone who didn't share an IP or home address reviewed them? Or is this just another thing that gets parroted with no basis in reality? C'mon now.

[SpottedOctopusShop]

There was a post by a new seller a few months ago. Etsy had suspended her shop. She had several things going on that maybe, individually and spread over time wouldn't get her shop shut down, but combined, did get her shop shut down. One of the things was that a household member was purchasing from her shop. So it's good not to risk it.

[bradgoodell]

@TickleYourWitch 

Maybe alarmist, maybe not.  

A few weeks back a new store owner said Etsy canceled and refunded a bunch of POD orders that were made by friends and family and Etsy accused the seller of shilling.  The orders had already been shipped by the POD, and the seller was not happy.

Now, I don't know how many orders, or any of the deeper details, and never saw the messages that seller received.  But I have seen shops with clear shilling feedback (same exact photo and first name as seller on the buyers account, quite blatant) get their feedback removed by Etsy.  The shop is no longer there last time I checked, so who knows who closed it.

So two potential examples.

Most sellers accused of shilling are not likely going to be talking about it in public.

I would be cautious.  

[TickleYourWitch]

@bradgoodell 

Okay, but the vague examples you cite sound like actual shilling. If all the reviews sounded the same and Etsy removed them there was a reason. 

That's not the same as saying Aunt Sally's review or a review from your BFF will get you shut down quick. It's easy enough just to cite the actual policy or provide a link. The rules are clear enough. 

[EccentricHandbags]

@bradgoodell  So you really don't know much about that particular example, but are going to advise people what to do based on that example? 

First of all, purchases made outside my own house all look the same to Etsy.  They have no way to know which ones are people I know personally.  A sincere purchase is one where the buyer really does want what they are buying.  And how else would I handle it?  I have no website for friends and family to  brose.  The alternative would be to let them look and then take it off of Etsy and commit fee avoidance.         

[TickleYourWitch]

@SpottedOctopusShop 

Once again, your example just seems to illustrate Etsy following their policies. 

Of course having someone in your household purchase is risky because of the shared financial interest possibility. 

Again, that's not the same as a blanket statement saying a friend or family review will get your shop shut down. Not true. Refer to Etsy's clear policy (as everyone is always being instructed to do). It's not ambiguous in any way.

[bradgoodell]

@EccentricHandbags  People are going to do what they are going to do.  I'm suggesting being cautious.

Completely legit shops have found themselves on Reserves, on forced vacation mode, and suspended by Etsy due to misunderstandings.  

I'm also completely willing to admit I could be 100% wrong, but I don't trust Etsy to be 100% right with their suspensions.

[TickleYourWitch]

So instead we should tell people we know who see our stuff on Etsy to come to us personally or buy from our website? Sounds like great advice (also kinda like fee avoidance) LOL

Also, I'm ETA that there is a tendency toward over caution on this site, sometimes. Of course we need to be smart. But remember the brief period when the scam of the day was people cancelling as soon as their orders had shipped? It was effecting people who shipped same or next day most. So even though it was only happening to a few people, the forum advice became to push out your processing times and not ship too quick in case this happened. Sounds good on the surface. 

How many people saw their sales rate drop when they took that advice and went from 1 day shipping to 1-3 days? I have my hand up. LOL Then I thought about it and realized I was reacting to something that was unlikely to happen to me and if it did, I would handle it. I upped my shipping speed again and boom sales go up. Etsy likes quick shipping. 

Sometimes safe advice isn't always the best for making sales (and sometimes it isn't even accurate). A friend who knows your product well and can talk about its USP in a review may be just what you need to jumpstart your shop. And it's perfectly Etsy legal as long as they really wanted it! lol (And they don't live with you or share a financial interest.) 

[bradgoodell]

@TickleYourWitch  

If my friends and family come to me saying they want a custom order, or ask where they can buy something online, it is not fee avoidance to send them to my website or invoice them.  They never visited my Etsy shop in the first place.  

Fee avoidance would be telling a buyer who found me on Etsy to buy off-Etsy.  If the initial contact is through Etsy, it needs to stay on Etsy.  

Therein lies the difference. 

[TickleYourWitch]

@bradgoodell 

Yes, I get it. But according to your first advice if a friend found me on Etsy, I should not handle their business on Etsy or my shop might get shut down. Because somehow I guess Etsy knows who all my friends and family are. 

[SpottedOctopusShop]

It's fee avoidance if a potential Etsy buyer comes to your shop and you give them a link to buy an item off Etsy. It's not fee avoidance if an acquaintance likes your work and asks where they can buy it and you give them your website. Advising to use caution isn't being alarmist. It's about having been around awhile and having seen a few things.

[TickleYourWitch]

@SpottedOctopusShop 

I disagree. It IS alarmist to tell people a friend or family review will get them shut down. 

Again, the policy is clear. You've provided no evidence that anyone following the policy is at risk. So why advise caution? 

[Adorabilities]

@TickleYourWitch
Because the OP's family is getting errors when trying to check out, they might be in the same location as the OP. I think that's where the shilling issue comes in -- not because they are shilling, but because Etsy might be stopping those purchases due to that rule. It's just a guess -- no one knows exactly why Etsy has errors at any given moment.