I was charged even though I was right in the case!

[turkishwomenshoes]

first of all hello, I sent the product to my customer and they tried to reach my customer but no one was at the address, then I got an email from the shipping company for the customer's phone and email, then I wrote to my customer and gave it to the shipping company, then they went to the address to re-deliver and asked for customs fees and in the etsy rules (the seller is not responsible for customs fees), but my customer does not want to pay, then he files a lawsuit and the mediator says that he can give my customer a credit of up to $ 100, my customer does not accept it and they refund 333 dollars from me, how can this happen even though I have ups confirmed tracking number?

[LastCentury]

What country did you ship to?

I see UPS is involved, are the shoes being returned to you?

by lawsuit, do you mean "opened a case"?

Who offered the $100 credit? Etsy?

[turkishwomenshoes]

I shipped via UPS to the Czech Republic and the goods were not returned to me, on top of that the mediator team says that in the case I can give you a credit of up to 100 dollars because the seller is not responsible for customs fees, and when my customer refused they demanded money from me, which is unfair.

[EccentricHandbags]

Any transactions over $250 dollars are automatically refunded and all the customer has to do is ask.  It is Etsys purchase protection program. 

[turkishwomenshoes]

it was not an auto-closed case, there was a mediator, the case lasted about 3 days

[bradgoodell]

1. The buyer didn't pay customs, so they did not receive the package
2. Orders over $250 don't have seller protection
3. If the buyer rejected the package, it should be returned to you unless you checked "do not return"

I've never heard of a mediator offering the buyer a credit, so this is pretty odd as is. Regardless, selling anything that totals over $250 always has some risk involved, due to no seller protection.  

[turkishwomenshoes]

there are conversations about the lawsuit, I can send photos here, I don't know where the products are now.

[bradgoodell]

Why would you send photos?  

We are all just other sellers here.  We are giving you advice.  We can do nothing for you.  

[PrimFun]

@turkishwomenshoes   The buyer is in the EU so did you inform the buyer that they will need to pay VAT and/or customs fees.  Though shop policies have the information in the shop home page that information is not included in listings and not all buyers visit the home page.  It is good to include this information any place you can so a buyer is aware.  150 Euros is the limit for VAT included in the price.  The buyer may have thought VAT was included in the price and was unaware it was not.

Etsy probably refunded because you lack certain information that is important for EU policies.  Your address must be available to all EU buyers and did you give the buyer the right of withdrawal? 

The offer of $100 is very strange.  Customs notification is part of a sellers duty.  Not Etsys.  

I suggest you read the information in Our House Rules about what Etsy will do when it comes to lawsuits.  They have guidelines on this and may not want to participate.

Is the shipper refusing to pick the item up to return to you?  The buyer has refused which is their right especially if the withdrawal was not provided.  So does the shipper want funds to return the item?  What is the shipper saying about this?  Is the VAT/Customs the reason it is sitting in the warehouse?  Do they want funds to return it to you?

And no, you cannot discuss or post anything that Etsy has said about this.  That would be a breach of confidence.

This might be something best left between you, the lawyers, Etsy and UPS.  

[BagmakerSupply]

@turkishwomenshoes: In addition to the excellent insights by @PrimFun there is a lot of anecdotal evidence that if a shop's policies / displayed information do not meet the legal requirements of the jurisdiction where the recipient is, Etsy will automatically side with the buyer.

[turkishwomenshoes]

They say that the buyer should pay the customs fee for the product, but the buyer doesn't pay the fee, the mediator in the case offered it to the buyer, not to me, but the client didn't accept that either, and the product is in the buyer's country, he should send the products back to me as a return, but he didn't.

[turkishwomenshoes]

I also sent an email to my own shipping company and they told me that the buyer should pay the customs fee.

[turkishwomenshoes]

I feel that I am being scammed, in this system every customer knows that when they buy a product over 250 dollars, they will get a guaranteed refund, even if it is unfair.

[bradgoodell]

@turkishwomenshoes Regardless of how you feel, it is up to you to decide how you will handle things like this in the future.  You've been selling here for long enough to know and understand Etsy's policies on Seller Protection and Buyer Protection.   Those policies have been in place for many years now, so I would assume this isn't a common problem for your shop otherwise you would have encountered it previously.  Now you know, you will be better prepared.  

[Adorabilities · Accepted solution]

All of this was done through Etsy, correct? A lawsuit would be done through lawyers/court. Etsy won't allow you to copy/paste their responses here, so you can only summarize what happened. 

I also find it strange that Etsy offered $100 to the customer. Was that to pay the customs fee? It does make sense that if the customer refused that offer, the package would (eventually) be returned to you, and therefore it would need to be refunded. Because orders over $250 are not covered by Etsy, the refund came from you. What's unfortunate is that you have already paid for the original shipping, and that is a loss for you. Sorry to hear that your customer wasn't willing to pay the fee.

[turkishwomenshoes]

Yes, the mediator offered 100 dollars for the customs fee, but my customer asked for 200 dollars, so it seemed very strange to me because the product was not returned to me because the product was not returned to me, it is now in the warehouse where my customer can receive the product, at least if it was returned to me, I lost 600 dollars because of this incident.

[turkishwomenshoes]

I can't even connect to live support Etsyn needs to stand behind the lawsuits filed in such things, I understand if the product is lost or damaged, but I was charged 333 dollars even though I was not responsible for the customs fee, and the mediator said that it was not the responsibility of the seller in the case filed.

[Adorabilities]

Calling it a lawsuit is confusing the posters here -- if it was all done through Etsy, it's a case, not a lawsuit.

I agree that no refunds should have been given until the item was returned, or at least put back into the mailstream with the intention of it being returned to you. While it's still being held by customs, the customer can still go and retrieve the (now free) item, just by paying the customs fee.

Unfortunately, what we see as reasonable or logical is not necessarily how Etsy makes their decisions.

[GlassyFields]

"but my customer does not want to pay, then he files a lawsuit and the mediator says tat he can give my customer a credit of up to $ 100,"

I'm trying to follow but have lots of questions

1. files a lawsuit - who did your customer file a lawsuit with? what was the basis of the lawsuit? or do you mean that the customer opened a case with Etsy?

2. who is the mediator? someone outside of Etsy (if this was a lawsuit) or someone from Etsy?

3. where was the $100 credit coming from? Etsy or your account?

4. what was the total order amount?

5. what were the custom fees that UPS tried to collect from the buyer? Were these custom fees or brokerage fees?

and sometimes buyers are surprised by customs and/or other fees (like brokerage fees charged by some carriers) and decide not to accept the order ... seems like that should result in the package being returned to you and the customer being refunded (not sure if they should be refunded for the shipping cost too). Why did the customer open a case?

If this was all on Etsy (Etsy case ... not a lawsuit), I'd appeal to Etsy and find out where my package is. I think the biggest issue is that orders over $250 have no seller protection.

[turkishwomenshoes]

The problem is that my customer doesn't want to return the product, he still wants to buy it, in fact he sent me a message 1 hour ago and he said I got the money for the products but I want to get the money for the customs fee, so he will buy the product and I will pay the customs fee.

[Adorabilities]

@turkishwomenshoes 

What the customer is proposing doesn't make any sense at all. You should not be paying the customs fee. The buyer needs to refuse the item, so it gets returned to you.

[GlassyFields]

@turkishwomenshoes 

So the buyer does not have the item because he would not pay the custom fees ... is that correct?

The item is in a warehouse - presumably belonging to the carrier.

The buyer still wants the item but w/o paying the customs fees. Buyer wants you to pay the customs fees.

And how much were the customs fees anyhow.

If it was me (and assuming that I understand this correctly), I would work with the carrier to have the item returned to me. I would NOT pay the buyer's custom fees for several reasons ... the buyer has already been unreasonable and I would not want to reward that. Plus it incents bad behavior, perhaps with other sellers, going forward.

I hope you're able to get the item returned to you. Sounds like it might be best to work with the carrier directly.

[TheVelvetPrincess]

In your policies do you state that buyer is responsible for all custom fees? I only ship in the USA and I only ship items under 250 dollars and that is for the total sale including shipping fees. I am looking for other ways to sell my more expensive finds. So sorry this happened to you.

[LastCentury]

"Buyers are responsible for any customs and import taxes that may apply. I'm not responsible for delays due to customs." 

that's part of the etsy's boiler plate policy which the OP has. 

@turkishwomenshoes your policies are not complete. Add:
- right of withdrawal
- gpsr

[turkishwomenshoes]

Yes, I am stating that the problem with my policies is that the arbitrator found me right, why is he refunding money from my account and on top of that my customer now wants the customs fee, so I will pay him the customs fee and he will get it from the shipping company.