Non-Compliance and being sued

[#1]

Hey I am all for non compliance but then in the back of my head I have this nagging feeling that even if the government does not go after us for now what abt "customers" out there looking for those who are not complying and find us and decide to sue us. We would not have a leg to stand on I do not think. Am I the only one who has thought abt this?? Maybe just over analyzing the situation.

[Former_Member]

a customer has no standing to sue you unless he/she is injured by your product. i don't believe they can sue you for not following the rules unless they get harmed.

[Former_Member]

I'm not afraid of getting sued by a customer, just getting turned in for not following the law. I'm sure there is a nice fine for that.

[Former_Member]

SpinachNPeace says:
a customer has no standing to sue you unless he/she is injured by your product. i don't believe they can sue you for not following the rules unless they get harmed.
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But they can still file the case...and take you to court.

They don't want to WIN the court case---they just want to see you get fined, is my point.

[Former_Member]

Karina, the case will be dropped before it gets to court because there is no standing. No judge is going to waste his time on a case where there is no standing. A judge will never see the case, the clerk will dismiss it. You cannot bring a case without standing.

[Former_Member]

oh and bringing cases without standing can result in malicious prosecution which is a HUGE fine for the person bringing the case. I don't think many customers will be willing to absorb that sort of fine just to see you fined.

while i dont think selling despite the law is a good idea, i dont think there is a threat of suits from customers.

[Former_Member]

just because the law says willfull in it doesnt mean that the prosecutor would have to prove that you KNEW it was illegal. all the prosecutor has to prove is that you KNEW that the item was within the rules (whether you knew the rules or not). for example if the rule says "you can't sell anything that is cotton," if you know an item is cotton and you are selling it, you can be prosecuted whether you knew there was a rule in tact or not. If you can prove that you reasonably believed the item was polyester, then you did not willfully break the rule.

[ByNanasHands]

And the bottom line here is not that they have the right to sue or not, the case will be prosecuted by either the CPSC OR the Attorney General in your state. All AG's have been given power to do so by the CPSC (since they don't have the money or manpower to do it).

Anyone trying to make a name for themselves will go for it....it just isn't worth the risk, no matter how unfair we think it is.....I still cannot believe I'm saying that...

Ozark

[Former_Member]

Thanks for all the info, think I'll just pull all my children's items and move on to something else.

[Former_Member]

All Civil Suits,No one is gonna sue you.There cost would be thu the roof.And they would have to sue you in your state.Stop feeding the parinoid.

[ByNanasHands]

I wish it would be that easy for me to just quit making children't toys and "move on"...but it's not. I LOVE making baby and toddler toys, it's what I "do". When I first started here my shop looked like a garage sale! Some tote bags, some towels, some diaper bags, some toys, some burp cloths.....until I realized that the only thing that made me "happy" was making and creating new toys for babies! I really have no desire to do any of the other things....I guess I could, but it would suddenly become a "job".....does that make sense to anyone?

Ozark

[Former_Member]

Ozark, I agree with you that the risk is not worth it. I understand your passion and I hope that somehow the regulation goes away...far far away and you can continue to make your awesome baby stuff!

[Former_Member]

This is all so amazing to me. I'm still not sure exactly how it affects me. As I've said before I just got my LLC last week and I'm starting a children's wear company. Something that has been in progress for two years now. I'm just finding out about this early on this month. Needless to say my jaw is still hanging and I'm still rather confused. I don't know whether to chuck my dream (that makes me tear up) or keep going...

[ByNanasHands]

PinkKiwi, as long as you can afford to do the proper testing and get the proper certifications of compliance you can keep going.....just educate yourself and understand the costs involved. For the most of us we could never afford the testing....

Ozark

[Former_Member]

I won't quit making the things I enjoy I just won't take the risk of trying to sell them on the internet or big craft shows. Right now I have a basement full of smocks, bibs, blankets, and pillows for children, I'm really hoping that this whole thing can be worked out soon!!

[Former_Member]

SpinachNPeace says:
just because the law says willfull in it doesnt mean that the prosecutor would have to prove that you KNEW it was illegal. all the prosecutor has to prove is that you KNEW that the item was within the rules (whether you knew the rules or not). for example if the rule says "you can't sell anything that is cotton," if you know an item is cotton and you are selling it, you can be prosecuted whether you knew there was a rule in tact or not. If you can prove that you reasonably believed the item was polyester, then you did not willfully break the rule.
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Right. But if a new law is out there, and you decide to promote in the forums how you're not going to follow that law even though you know it exists, and it can be reasonably proven that you KNEW the law was there and broke it anyhow (hence, proof on the forums), then you did willfully break that rule.

[Former_Member]

I think part of the reason people are stating their intentions publicly is because they are confident that they aren't doing anything wrong. Being vocal and "out there" is part of trying to get this changed.

[Former_Member]

where do we get our items tested at?

[Former_Member]

Whole lotta brainstorming going on........OUCH,my head hurts, I need chocolate ,organic, free trade, non child slavery free choclate.

[worksofwhimsy]

I'm not so worried about being sued by a customer as I am about the CPSC prosecuting and making an example of my business.

Remember the file sharing business a few years ago? The powers that be didn't seem to hesitate about prosecuting teenagers and senior citizens, just to make their point!

[Former_Member]

This is just a thought, but whatif by everbody staying open, no one realizes the full impact of this law? If we are all closed wouldn't our voices be louder? People couldn't buy things that they want to buy and they would begin to realize what's going on and demand a change. We've been loud as sellers, but an entire population of parents would be unavoidable. Again, just thinking out loud.

[Former_Member]

Babyboss I like your thinking! Though I think some of us depend on our extra income and may not agree with that way of thinking. I do think it really is an excellent thought! Something to ponder. If customers can not buy anything that they want then they will get more involved and learn more abt what is going on. Then all of us "mommy bloggers" will not be the reason for the mass hysteria. The law will actually be to blame!

[Former_Member]

I sell toys, and grown ups can enjoy toys, too. I'm going to start working on items geared toward a more general audience, and be oober careful about the materials I use.

I have a few very very child specific products. Those will be tested, or discontinued.

I was in the works with a magazine to get my flannel boards featured, and haven't pursued it because of the CPSIA. Maybe I need to pick it back up and re-create the demand. Even if the magazine doesn't say anything about the CPSIA, I could still do a lot to inform customers who inquire.

Punchline: I just wish it was a US magazine. :~P

[Former_Member]

Thanks SpoiledSweet. I can certainly appreciate the fact that for those who depend on this income to feed their family, closing really isn't an immediate option. I am not judging anybody for what they decide. I just think we will be in a much better position to make them amend this law if we remove our products from the market. When the children's market starts "circling the drain," people will take notice and they will be loud about it.

[ByNanasHands]

I do have to say that my Sister just called and had me laughing out loud (not easy to do these days). She said "well, just go right on making your darling turtles, but velcro anatomically correct body parts on them and market them as adult toys, that way the parent can take the part off and you've won"! Can you just imagine cute little Tilly the Turtle with breasts?

LOL....Ozark

[worksofwhimsy]

I don't think there will be any noticable difference for customers on Feb. 10. Many etsy sellers are staying open out of protest, or ignorence of the law. I stopped my a local upscale baby boutique yesterday, and asked how they were dealing with it, and their answer was "no worries". It seems they've been told that their current inventory was grandfathered in, and any new inventory is the responsibility of the manufacturer.
So, the perception that toy stores and boutiques will be boarded up come Feb. 10th is false.