Damaged item in post

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Hey,

So I sold a custom order crown to a lady back in December for her wedding. She got in contact with me today (Yes AUGUST!), telling me it arrived damaged. She wants a refund.

Frankly I feel justified in not refunding her. What thinks?

[PaperCreationsbyDeb]

No refund. After 8 months, nope.
I would have to believe the damage would have been noticed right away.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Thanks

I told her I won't offer a refund. I'm just hoping she doesn't kick up a fuss with Etsy about it.

[CharmingPrintables]

I agree, she should have contacted you right away if there was an issue - I wouldn't refund either. She only has 60 days to open a case with Etsy, so that time has already passed. I don't think she can do anything about it with Etsy now...

[Former_Member]

I would not refund either - and I have made some pretty ridiculous exceptions with my own products just to ensure customer satisfaction...but yeah, sounds like she used it, laid it to the side and now wants to get a refund...8 months later...NO WAY. no telling where the damage came from.

[heartsabustin]

No refund.

She probably is looking for a way to recoup some money after the wedding.

[SpangGangDesigns]

Agree with N Alley! On a side note, do you have a policy in place regarding refunds and a time frame?

[KiltedWoman]

I wonder if she is trying this with ALL her wedding items. Good luck returning the flowers!

[StuckOnSilver]

Lori, you are so funny! But no. No refund after all this time.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Hey,

Yeah the lady replied that she just wasn't on top of things when I told her no refund.

As such, I felt compelled to change my policies to no longer offer refunds under any circumstances. I know this seems harsh but a lot of people buy my crowns for weddings, photoshoots etc a one time wear thing. So I'm worried others may try to recoup costs after a wedding.

Also, I make sure all items are well made and packaged before they leave me, so unless the person purchases a shipping upgrade (Such as insurance and tracking), I don't feel I should be held responsible for damages and losses.

[PaperCreationsbyDeb]

Your "no longer offer refunds under any circumstances" policy won't fly. All payment processors can, and do, force refunds.

You'll need to find some middle ground to protect yourself. For instance, something like:

Refunds accepted within one week of receiving the item. Item must be in unused condition and returned in original packaging.

You could always attach a large, conspicuous tag to your crowns that must be intact when the item is returned.

Also, insurance and tracking is for the sellers protection, not the buyers. They are, again, protected by their payment processor.

You have no way to prove an item was received without tracking and will lose any and all cases that may be opened against you for "item not received".

Tracking is included with most shipping methods now and is free.
Insurance, again, is free with many shipping methods and very inexpensive to purchase separately, if needed.

Both of the policies you mentioned are very off putting to buyers, and unenforceable. If you think about it, would you buy anything online from someone who basically says they aren't responsible for it once they give it to the post office?

Your items are beautiful and I fully expect lots of sales to come your way. Take a little time to learn how to protect yourself without losing money. Increase your prices a bit to cover added insurance, for instance.

Good luck and many sales to you.

[SpangGangDesigns]

I agree, you can't NOT be held responsible for damage in the mail. It is not your customer's fault if an item is received damaged. It is YOUR responsibility to get it to her safely. Insurance is for YOUR protection, not the customer's. However, you can have a policy to state that the proof of damage must be received via photograph within 3 business days, etc. I'd revisit this...

[Former_Member]

I agree about not being able to offer no refunds for damaged items. It is a huge red flag for customers-- but here are some things that I recommend:

- Attach a large tag to the item (like those done on prom dresses, etc) that states once the tag is removed, the item cannot be returned. Make sure that you attach this using a method much like a tag on an item in a retail store that you will be able to tell if it has been removed and/or they have no way of reattaching it. On the back of the tag - make sure you print in large bold underlined font - NOT RETURNABLE ONCE TAG HAS BEEN REMOVED. This makes sense because it is most likely a one time use item and is in line with how large retail works with like items. It is fair and still allows you to offer a guarantee to your customer.

- I have a process in place for returns that states you must contact me within X number of days if you have any concerns with quality. I ONLY offer refunds or re-dos for that. Luckily I have only had one issue in all of my sales - with a little embellishment coming off - so I replaced it. BUT, I should have had her return the original item to me - to protect myself....lesson learned.

- I take pictures of all of my items before I send them - and once the notification goes out that it has shipped, I send the customer a picture of the finished item/package saying it is on the way. This is especially useful for both of us - because many of my orders are custom made. So it is a win-win for both of us - they know that I have a PIC of how it looked when it left my shop - so it deters them from falsely claiming anything. AND they know exactly what to expect.

I try really hard to be fair and work with the customer and back my product up - BUT after 8 months - especially on a wearable item for one time use - I would not refund that.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

I don't automatically offer insurance and tracking because in the UK it is rather expensive. As such I offer it as a shipping upgrade, hence why I don't feel I should be held responsible if it goes missing or gets damaged. Afterall they had the choice to choose insurance and tracking and didn't take it.

I'll have a think about what you have all said.

[SageNThymeDesigns]

Now is a great time to think about updating your shop Policies. It's okay to update them when you are presented with a new situation, such this one.

Know what works for you and your business, but also what's fair. We are inherently different from large retailers (Amazon) and therefore cannot offer the same policies. Most customers who choose to shop on Etsy understand and embrace those differences.

Nearly everything in my shop is custom or made to order with very limited vintage materials. I offer 200+ items in many colors and sizing from infants through adults, and I don't carry an inventory. As such, I don't offer refunds, returns or exchanges. Expensive items ship with insurance (Priority mail).

If something is damaged, etc I offer to repair or replace. If you ordered the wrong size, gave me inaccurate measurements or just decide you'd rather "see it in a different color" then I'm so very sorry- perhaps you should choose a shop that offers unconditional refunds and returns.

Custom orders are final sale, Period!

I also ask customers to let me know of a challenge within 3 days of receiving their order. Paypal only lets you refund within 90 days of the purchase, so you probably couldn't give her a refund even if you wanted to.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Hey,

Well I've had a think, and decided to alter my policies so that all crowns can only be returned if the tag is in place. If a buyer is unhappy with the item or it arrives damaged I must be notified within 3 days of receipt of item. I do not refund custom orders.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Forgot to add: If it is also made know to me before, during or after checkout of an item that it is for a wedding I will not offer a refund.

[happywrap]

Hi Amy,

As you're in the UK, you have to comply with the EU Distance Selling Regulations, and unfortunately the '3 days to notify' and not refunding if it's for a wedding is not compliant. I appreciate you are trying to take steps to protect your business but your policies need to be within the law.

Customers in the EU can change their mind and request a refund up to 14 days after receipt of an item, they do not even have to give a reason. As long as the item is unused (great idea to add a tag on as others have suggested) you have to refund them once you have received the item back or received proof of posting if it goes missing in the post on return. The only exception to this is custom orders where the seller has customised an item at the specific request of the customer and it is not re-sellable to anyone else (e.g personalised).

Also, the seller is responsible for the item if it gets damaged or goes missing in the post, not the buyer. So there is no need for the buyer to pay for extra insurance or tracked services as you would have to deal with a Royal Mail claim if it went missing or got damaged, and the customer would be entitled to a replacement or a refund.

Here's a useful thread with a link to an article about the Distance Selling Regs that were updated in July this year:

https://www.etsy.com/teams/7332/etsys-uk-ireland-seller-support-team/discuss/13736732/

Hope it helps.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Ahh thank you, I had no idea.

What's the point in the post office offering insurance if it doesn't matter given I'm still responsible even if it's not been purchased?

[LeNidDeFleurs]

I don't really understand fully. What does the 7 days apply to then? Is it just for UK customers and the rest of Europe 14 days?

[happywrap]

Sorry, I just noticed the date on the article is Jan 14, in July 14 the 14 days applies to the UK as well so the 7 days no longer applies as far as I know.

The insurance is for things that are over the value covered by Royal Mail as standard (£20), so at the moment if you send something by normal 2nd class post and it gets lost or damaged, you can make a claim from Royal mail up to £20 as long as you have proof of posting and supply them with the required documents (e.g. proof of cost to you, materials, your labour if you made it into a finished product etc.)

http://www.royalmail.com/personal/help-and-support/available-compensation-for-damaged-and-part-loss-...

https://www.etsy.com/uk/teams/7332/etsys-uk-ireland-seller-support-team/discuss/10399438/page/17

Basically the idea is that you as the seller process the claim with Royal Mail and not the buyer, so the insurance (if you wish to pay for insurance as your item is over £20) is also your choice. Some sellers take the risk if items are replaceable as the extra for insurance for every package adds up to more than the occasional loss. I guess you just need to weigh up how often if happens and whether it's worth paying for it every time. I've only ever had 3 items go missing in 4 years of trading across several websites (touch wood!).

[LeNidDeFleurs]

I've had several people claim they've not received their items. I'm filling out claims forms each month.

What I don't see mentioned on the DSR regulations is what about non european customers? Most of my customers are from the USA.

[happywrap]

That sounds so frustrating if it's happening every month! If that was me I would only send things by either tracked or signed for and put prices up to cover the extra cost.

Regarding the DSR's, I don't know what happens with customers outside the EU but I personally would treat all customers the same as I just think it's good practise. I guess the bare minimum would be to comply with the law of the country concerned, so whatever the regulations are in the US should be complied with for your US customers.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Thank you to all the people who responded. I've got some great tips and advice.