Unexplained deactivation, support needed

[LightLanguage777]

My listing for the Lemurian Starchild Oracle Pocket Size Edition (SKU: 9781916029231) was deactivated, and I’m not sure why. This is a product I co-created with my partner. It’s an original, self-published oracle deck that we’ve been selling on Etsy for a while. We’ve followed all the guidelines, and the listing even has reviews, but now it’s been taken down.

My partner sells the same product in the UK, through a separate Etsy shop. We both contributed to the designs of the Oracle Deck.

I’ve already contacted Etsy Support (Ticket #17350634), and I’ve been told I might need to create a new listing. But doing that would mean losing all the reviews and sales history tied to the original listing, and it would take quite a bit of time to make the new listing and connect it to apps.

• Authors: Michiel Kroon and Leanne Ta’Iki Anawa 
• The deck has 88 original designs—we created the artwork and the deck ourselves.
• We have a production partner that manufactures the physical product, which we’ve disclosed in the listing as per Etsy’s guidelines.

I feel like our listing follows Etsy’s creative standards, but I haven’t gotten a clear explanation for the deactivation, which makes it difficult to know what to fix. I suspect it might be related to the fact that we also sell this product on Amazon and our own website, but it’s definitely not a reselling situation—it’s our own creation.

~ Michiel

[NanaLetha]

Are you both using the same photos? 

[LightLanguage777]

Hi NanaLetha, some of the photos are the same, others are different.

[OneEyeCatStudio]

It doesn't matter to the Etsy bots who it is that created or holds the rights to something. If they see your photos on some other sites, even if someone else has stolen your photos you get penalized by Etsy.

This is just Etsy Keeping Commerce Human With Bots.

Do a search, and if you find your photos elsewhere file DMCAs.

And, if you get it sorted, going forward, always use different photos on the different sites that you are selling on.

[LightLanguage777]

Yes good to be aware of that, and to keep an eye on other sites too.

if I get the listing back up I could definitely do new photos just for Etsy, it’s just finding out their specific reason for taking it down.

I’ve got a support ticket and done two support chats, but the details still seem to be unclear.

[GroundZeroCreations]

@ChantillyAvenue To continue seems to me that it would be the cliché of insanity, doing the same thing and expecting a different result. LOL

I don't think there can be a different result when it is the same people selling the same thing. If it can be classified as a supply, perhaps one could list it as "designed by", although I am not sure that would even work. 

[LightLanguage777]

@GroundZeroCreations a bit of background: this is a self-published Oracle Deck. My partner and I worked on it for 3 years. We created all the 88 card designs together so therefore we are both creators. And we have a trademark with both of our names on it. And we have listed each other as shop member on shop profiles. So we have been completely transparent and selling our own creation To me this is completely compatible with the Etsy brand which also stands for creativity.

[ChantillyAvenue]

@GroundZeroCreations 

I think you're nested in the wrong place, lol.  I almost didn't see your comment.  You may be right.  This issue seems to be escalating by the day though, and I think the worst thing we can do is just roll over and take it.  At any rate, it's easy to say it's not worth it when it's not our business on the chopping block.  They're killing shops willy-nilly because they're so invested in bad AI, they can't/won't look back. That's not good.

[GroundZeroCreations]

@LightLanguage777 You hit the nail on the head. 

"And we have a trademark with both of our names on it. And we have listed each other as shop member on shop profiles."

Both your names are listed on each others shop. Consequently, Etsy and their AI Bots see the same names on two different shops with the exact same product. I may be among the minority (don't really know), but I think that stuff like this is where Etsy is applying the policy of you can't sale the same product in two different shops. You can have multiple shops. You just can't sale the same things. 

Bottom line, whether Etsy is right or wrong, it is their ballpark and they decide when we can play in it. Some times you can beat your head against the wall until the cows come in, but it won't change anything. I am afraid that may be the case here. Sorry. 

[LightLanguage777]

@GroundZeroCreationsIt is my understanding that everyone involved in the shop needs to be listed as a shop member. Since we created the Oracle deck together, we have followed the guidance from Etsy and added each other as shop member. One as owner and the other in the role of co-creator/author.

This simply means that we are both involved in the Oracle deck creation. However our businesses and shops are completely separate.

I have thoroughly read the creative policy and I believe that what we are doing is completely within the rules. The real issue here is misconfigured AI bots IMO.

I just wanted to clarify that.

[ChantillyAvenue]

@LightLanguage777 

I think the wording isn't that specific, but I hope this works out for you.  It's not your usual scenario, so it will be interesting to see how it comes out--even better if that's in a positive way.  One thing I'd be concerned about is they can give you the green light this week, and then bots deactivate your listing 3 months from now, and you have to go through all this again.  They do that kind of thing.  Good luck.

[BagmakerSupply]

@LightLanguage777: "My partner sells the same product in the UK, through a separate Etsy shop. " Probably not allowed in Etsy land as one of you would be considered a reseller or counterfeiter. While what you are doing may make sense, you need to keep in mind that Etsy is not set up to deal gracefully with edge cases and the bots certainly are not able to differentiate.

[LightLanguage777]

Hi Bagmakersupply, we have a trademark with both of our names on it, so that should be enough proof that we are both genuine sellers. Also both of our names are on the box, which is on the main product photo.

[FallenAngelBrass]

You're wrangling with bots, not with humans.  If you're lucky and unique, you'll eventually get to a moment when you can talk with an Etsy human who can re-activate your cards, but until then, you're dealing with bots that think one of you is a counterfeiter.  

[GroundZeroCreations]

@LightLanguage777 Etsy policy prohibits the sale of the same products in multiple Etsy shops. Running the shop in different names is little more than what gives the appearance of an attempt to game the system and avoid the rule. 

Why would you put the same product in two shops? If you want to sale in other locations, just add those locations in your countries you ship to. 

As @BagmakerSupply pointed out, only one of you can be the original seller. The other person would be considered a reseller.

So can you now see why the bots deactivated it and why Etsy now refuses to discuss it further? 

[LightLanguage777]

@FallenAngelBrass The Etsy staff I’ve been chatting with are nice enough, but they are not allowed to override the bots unfortunately… Wrangling is the right word though for these interactions, unfortunately.

[ChantillyAvenue]

@GroundZeroCreations 

Not disputing anything either of you are saying, but it almost sounds like it'd be less painful to keep fighting with them than to just give up.  I kind of think the OP is butting up against a brick wall, but when it's your business, you wanna fight for it.

[ArtDollsbyJD]

@GroundZeroCreations   If the shops in question are owned by two different people and are not linked in any way then it should be allowed for them to sell something they co-wrote.

This is not the same as a single seller having multiple shops.

The only thing that may be an issue if they use the same laptop between them to log into their shops.  Then the MAC address is known to Etsy and they won't know who is the owner, hence they would say the same item cannot be sold in two shops

[LightLanguage777]

@GroundZeroCreations @ArtDollsbyJD  I can confirm that these shops are linked to two separate businesses, one from me and one from my partner.

As creators we each like to have a unique Etsy shop and include our Oracle Deck within it. To me it’s part of being creative.

[GroundZeroCreations]

@ArtDollsbyJD I am not arguing whether they should or should not be able to sale the same thing. I am just saying according to Etsy they can't.

The OP said, "And we have a trademark with both of our names on it. And we have listed each other as shop member on shop profiles."

I am afraid that may be where the bots and Etsy are hitting them. 

[GroundZeroCreations]

@LightLanguage777 Do you and your partner have different addresses, different emails, different banking information, etc. listed with Etsy? Not sure the bots are even looking at that but just a thought.

[LightLanguage777]

@GroundZeroCreations yes we tick all those boxes , our businesses are separate. Etsy would be able to check that, and I hope they will.

Which is why I believe that the way we sell is clearly within Etsy policy.

We simply have unique Etsy shops in which we like to sell our creations including the Oracle deck.

[BagmakerSupply]

@LightLanguage777: I think you may have misunderstood my point. Whether or not what you are doing is right or wrong is almost immaterial in this discussion. Etsy just does not seem to be designed to deal with situations like yours and a shop owner has to accept that.

In Etsy's rather binary mindset, one product can only be sold by one shop.

Not defending Etsy in any way, but we need to remember that Etsy was designed to allow a crafter to sell their hand crocheted doilies in their one shop. Supplies, digital, and vintage are add-ons that were bolted onto a system that was never designed for that capability.

[LightLanguage777]

@BagmakerSupply 

“In Etsy's rather binary mindset, one product can only be sold by one shop.”

I just wondered if there is any reference in their policies, I’ve thoroughly read the creative policy and haven’t been able to find it. Or are you talking about the artificial ‘mindset’ of the bots?

[AAANativeArts]

The Chat people can't make decisions about anything, so I wouldn't even bother with them.

Etsy will never tell you exactly why your listing was deactivated, they just leave it to you to "guess."

The best thing to do is to file an appeal via the Help->Contact Us link. The first 2 or 3 responses will be canned responses from bots, including one that may say their decision is final. It's not. Just keep replying in the same email thread with a subject line of "I Still Need Help" and tell them all your proof again. Include screenshots if appropriate. Eventually, a real person will intervene and consider your evidence.

Don't start any new email threads, or they will close the one you had open, and consider it a new problem, and send you to the back of the line to start over with the canned responses from the bots again.