Trader status being reset to Individual

[KazaniansEmporium]

Hi, just a heads up to other sellers... I was prompted to check my own seller status after seeing a lot of people in another thread finding out that their shops were listed as Individual when it should have been Trader (this status not only allows sellers to be compliant with the legal requirements of their country but also impacts whether they receive important emails from Etsy about factors affecting their business). I know absolutely 100% that I had previously ticked the Trader box but somehow it was now showing as Individual, something I thought was maybe a result of a website update that reset all shops to a default. I re-ticked the Trader box and saved and made a mental note to check back in more frequently to make sure that all of my settings were accurate. That was only a few weeks ago. I checked back in today... and my status had once more been reset to Individual. I have, once again, ticked the Trader box and saved but am not confident that this setting will remain. I have opened a ticket with Etsy about this issue but wanted to warn other sellers to keep an eye on their own shops.

... and Happy New Year everyone!

[korbelleads]

I've had the same problem.

[CraftyCornishMaids]

I think etsy set it back, after asking for UTR, because of the UK taking on oecd laws, and set it back when utr was entered

I added my UTR in June time, before etsy started asking, and haven't been set back to personal

[KazaniansEmporium]

I assumed it was something like that but mine keeps being reset, I have ticked and saved 3x in the last few months and every time it's being reset, the last time I ticked was just a few of weeks ago, just prior to the 13th in prep for the new GPSR regs.

[KitchenDresser]

Fascinating, goes to check my status....

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@KitchenDresser 

you do not have the trader box ticked

or your address in seller details

[KazaniansEmporium]

So I think I have found what the issue is... there's two places where ones status as an "individual" or "trader" is mentioned. One is in the shop settings where you have the choice to tick Trader or Private Individual (so professional vs non-professional seller) and the second place is in the Legal and Tax Information settings where the choices are "Individual or sole proprietor" vs "Incorporated Business". The use of the terms individual and trader in these two different areas are not based on the same meaning and therefore there seems to be a conflict, as a result of that conflict the Etsy system is defaulting to what's in the Legal/Tax info. The problem that I and many others seem to be having is that we are individuals/sole traders but NOT private individuals in terms of our businesses. I am not an incorporated business and do not have a business registration number and other identifiers of such companies so I must tick (correctly so) the Individual or sole Proprietorship box. All good so far. But, then when I go to the shop settings which controls what is displayed to my customers I need to tick Trader and the Etsy system is seeing that as contradicting the info in the Legal and Tax settings and defaulting to that one instead.

I'm currently trying to explain all this to Support but I'm getting what must be cut and paste replies that advise changing browsers to resolve the issue... which I'm pretty sure is not going to make a single bit of difference.

If anyone here can see something I am doing that is wrong and is maybe causing this problem then please give me a shout as I'm losing faith that Etsy will be able to understand and care even less about solving the problem. 

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@KazaniansEmporium 

etsy don't understand , I have been repeatedly on their case for years,

twice they have changed the eu/uk guidance because of what I have said, but it has taken years, and I still don't think they actually understand the changes they made

however, mine does not revert back,

so I don't know why some do, and some don't

[JJewellerySuppliesUK]

This is weird.  I have Trader ticked in the Seller Details section and it says:

If you’re an incorporated business on Etsy, you’re likely considered a professional seller in the EU (known as a trader). We have to show buyers this info in your seller details due to consumer protection laws

However I am an Individual under Finances - Legal & Tax Info but there it says:

Individual or sole proprietorship - You sell under your own name or a trade name. Most sellers on Etsy fall into this category.

The only other selection is "Incorporated Business" which I am not but under the Trader definition is says I am an incorporated business.

So Etsy is contradicting itself and as usual everything is as clear as mud!

@KazaniansEmporium Maybe you need to select it in the Finances section for it to stick in the Seller Details section?  

@CraftyCornishMaids Maybe you can work this out?

[DaysofYoreTreasures]

@JJewellerySuppliesUK 

@KazaniansEmporium Maybe you need to select it in the Finances section for it to stick in the Seller Details section?  

I would not recommend doing that because you may go into a verification loop with Etsy asking for proof, like articles of incorporation - or worse, forced vacation mode.

During the forced vacation mode disaster I checked the Seller details of the shops impacted. Nearly all were Trader status plus they had this extra text underneath.
This seller has confirmed that the items they sell on Etsy are in line with all local laws that apply to their business.

I believe that extra text only appears for sellers who are set to Incorporated business in Legal and tax info.

[JJewellerySuppliesUK]

@DaysofYoreTreasures Yes, don't select incorporated business unless you actually are one!

[TwiLdCapitHog]

I am not an "incorporated business" and will not be ticking any boxes to say I am. My seller details are still showing, as required by law. 

[DaysofYoreTreasures]

Looking at the European Commission definition of a Trader, it could be said that any Etsy shop selling into the EU is a Trader.
The conflict lies in Etsy defining only an Incorporated Business as a Trader.

*The underlined text is links to my sources.
**The exact definitions of Incorporated Business & Sole Proprietor do vary by country but I think these sources give a good general description.

Seller details - Trader
The UCPD defines a 'trader' as 'any natural or legal person who, in commercial practices covered by this Directive, is acting for purposes relating to his trade, business, craft or profession and anyone acting in the name of or on behalf of a trader'.
Etsy's definition: You're required to display this status to all EU buyers if you're a professional seller or identify as an incorporated business on Etsy.

Seller details - Private Individual 
?
Etsy's definition: If you're not a professional seller and identify as an individual or sole proprietorship on Etsy, you won't have to display this status.

Legal & Tax info - Incorporated Business
Incorporating a business means turning your sole proprietorship or general partnership into a company formally recognized by your state of incorporation. When a company incorporates, it becomes its own legal business structure set apart from the individuals who founded the business.

Legal & Tax info - Individual or Sole Proprietor
A Sole proprietorship is an enterprise owned exclusively by one natural person and in which there is no legal distinction between the owner and the business entity. The entrepreneur exercises his activity without having created a distinct legal person.

[KazaniansEmporium]

Absolutely this! Well summarised. 

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@DaysofYoreTreasures 

Etsy actually does spell it out properly, in their legal section, for selling to EU and UK, so - there is definitely someone in etsy that knows what should happen......

If you are a private seller, many of the obligations under consumer protection law, such as offering cancellation or withdrawal will not apply to you. Due to new EU rules, Etsy must tell buyers when they are dealing with a private seller that EU consumer protection laws do not apply to their purchases from the private seller. A private seller is a person who is not selling for the purposes of a trade, business, craft or profession. A trade seller is a natural person or legal person (i.e. company) who is acting for the purposes of his trade, business, craft or profession when selling goods or services.

[KazaniansEmporium]

"Looking at the European Commission definition of a Trader, it could be said that any Etsy shop selling into the EU is a Trader."

Indeed, at least as far as Germany is concerned and I'm pretty sure it's EU wide, anyone making something and then selling it is some kind of professional seller. Here there is the distinction between a Kleinunternehmer and an Einzelunternehmer where the former is someone making very little money from their enterprise (so would include hobbyists) and the latter which is a small business but basically earning enough for it to be their main job. Neither of these reach the level of a GmbH, the most common form of incorporated business and do not have the registration verifications required by Etsy.

[MyOrganisedHome]

I think part of the problem is Etsy’s use of woolley inclusive language - ‘identify as’.

You cannot ‘identify as’ an incorporated business, you either are one or you are not.

As Etsy makes great use of AI (which is frequently sadly lacking in the I) and bots plus using outsourced support whose first language is often not English, well, something gets lost in translation.

Etsy Legal may understand the issue, but it seems that Etsy IT support, programmers and seller support do not. If they look at the wording that (presumably) Etsy Legal have authorised to be shown, then ‘identify as’ does rather come across as an opt-in or opt-out choice.

If this is the case it would explain why some sellers find their status automatically reverts to private individual and that Support cannot see why they can’t just tick the incorporated business box to stop the loop. It would also explain why something has been programmed to do this in the first place.

[DaysofYoreTreasures]

@CraftyCornishMaids 

I feel terribly confused about the difference between a Private Seller and a Sole Proprietor, when both are engaged in ecommerce on Etsy

Whilst researching for my previous comment I could not find a definitive difference between the two.

The Etsy definition tells us what the private seller is not, but it doesn't tell us what they are:
A private seller is a person who is not selling for the purposes of a trade, business, craft or profession.

Could you help explain, please?

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@DaysofYoreTreasures 

this says what they are

A private seller is a person who is not selling for the purposes of a trade, business, craft or profession.

so, you could be selling an old pair of your old shoes, or old handbag, to get rid of it, and be a private seller

 but nothing to actually try to make a profit - trade

[DaysofYoreTreasures]

@CraftyCornishMaids 

Then I wonder how Etsy differentiates between a Private Seller and a Sole Proprietor for the purposes of this policy
If you are a private seller, many of the obligations under consumer protection law, such as offering cancellation or withdrawal will not apply to you,
given that both types are lumped together under Seller Details - Private Individual and Legal & Tax info - Individual.

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@DaysofYoreTreasures 

sole proprietor is in the legal and tax section, it is to do with taxes, it is nothing to do with consumer protection law

Trader is in the sellers details, iit is to do with consumer protection law.

they are completely two different things

[KazaniansEmporium]

So I received a reply last night from support which told me I am supposed to tick Incorporated Business... which of course is just nonsense and will open me up to a whole host of other problems as mentioned already... I have replied to them *again* informing them that this is also not accurate and equally problematic and again explaining where the problem lies... the US-centric definition of a sole trader. At the moment my patchwork solution will be to find somewhere that I can include all the information required by law as a professional seller to be displayed and continue beating Etsy Support over the head with emails. 

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@KazaniansEmporium 

give them a link to their own legal page, where they specify what a trader is for consumer law

https://www.etsy.com/legal/policy/selling-to-eu-and-uk-buyers/239965962014

[KazaniansEmporium]

@CraftyCornishMaids  thanks for the link... I'll send it to them now.

[KazaniansEmporium]

This is all shades of facepalm... Etsy Support have now answered my previous message with "check if it's an update issue" and then they advised me to contact Etsy Support directly....????.... so either I'm talking to a ghost or I'm just getting fobbed off by someone that has no clue what I am talking about and is just picking a cut and paste response at random to try and close the ticket.