Shop Suspended Due to Violating Handmade Policy

[#1]

Hello,

I am trying to get clarification on the issue stated in the headline. I have been selling on Etsy for over 4 years now, have close to 8,000 sales and a 4.8 star rating selling wide brim hats and fedoras.

The other day we received an email stating our store was suspended for violating the handmade rule. The issue is that we never said we personally hand make the hats in our store. Since we do not handmake our hats, we have the 2 production partners listed that I use to bring my designs to life. 

In Etsy's example of a production partner it states:

"Sellers’ original designs produced by a production partner: Original designs created by a seller and produced with the assistance of a production partner. Sellers must disclose that an item is made by a production partner, and provide accurate information about where the item will ship from.

E.g. A unique dress designed by a seller and reproduced at scale by a production partner."

The dress example is exactly what our business does, but with fedoras and wide brim headwear. I monitor the niche to see what styles are popular, or emerging, have someone on Fiverr create mock-ups for me based on our designs and inputs, reach out to productions partners, pay for samples, compare samples once received, narrow down which partner to use based on the quality of samples we receive from the production partner, and then finally once we receive the products from the production partner, we use all our own equipment to take and edit professional level photos using a high end camera, canva, and adobe.

I am not understanding why our listings keep getting removed and now we are suspended. I have wrote to Etsy with each removal of our listings and more recently this suspension appeal and we have never once heard back from a human that can explain why our listings keep getting flagged.

I have put countless hours into this Etsy business and would love if someone could help us understand the issue and how to get it rectified.

Thanks

[DopeHatsShop]

All of the listings have been updated to designed by and have been that way after they initially removed some listings. 

We continued to have listings removed upon updating them all and then finally were suspended. No explanation in all 4 scenarios.

[AnnaleasFinest]

@DopeHatsShop 

how many listings were removed before they closed you? 4?

[NanaLetha]

@DopeHatsShop  At this point I think only Etsy Support can help you.

[DopeHatsShop]

I think you are right.

Unfortunately, they refuse to respond to any support requests, so 4+ years of hard work down the drain.. have to love it

[CoquetteBath]

you said in your OP: someone on Fiverr create mock-ups for me 

Ummm, that's not handmade. YOU have to create the mockups. YOU have to be the designer. You can't tell someone how to do a design, and have them do the work.

then a production partner makes the item?

so, to me, that isn't handmade at all. If you did the design, absolutely under Etsy's rules, but based on what you said, you aren't designing, you're choosing. Big difference.

[DopeHatsShop]

The person creating the mockup is not a designer. The person creating the mockup has the software to take the design and make a CAD type rendering so I can send exact specs to a production partner. If you don't have a rendering with specifics, such as measurements, colors, materials, embellishments, tags, logos, etc then you will end up spending more on samples that were not needed-- samples are very expensive.

Drawing a dress on a piece of paper would be designing the dress right? Well, the production partner is not going to be able to make the dress because you send them a piece of paper with a dress on it. Software must be used that has specifics to bring the design to a physical products.

If you draw a bridge as an architect are you no longer the designer because you used an engineering to specify the measurements and materials before it was built? Same concept. 

[TwiLdCapitHog]

Oh my! How on earth do you think items were produced before software. Lol

Defining the measurements and materials is part of the design. 

[CostumeCoutureNaomi]

@CoquetteBath 

I do all my own designs, from design concept, sourcing, cutting, construction to finishes, so I don't use this process.

But what @DopeHatsShop describes is how the design process works in the garment industry.

Many designers just design, then send their sketches and/or concepts to pattern makers, drapers, etc who work out the proportions,  calculate the angles, and build the mechanical and structural parts of the designs, so the concept can translate to the software used to run the machines that produce the items.

Perhaps he is not wording or describing it well, but what he is describing is fairly standard operating procedure for designers in the garment industry.

As someone who works in that field, I would consider what he is doing to definitely fall into the "designed by" category based on his description of his process.

[CoquetteBath]

@CostumeCoutureNaomi 

appreciate that insight.

As someone who has never been in that area, the idea that you just create a drawing and let everyone else do...everything else, seems contrary to me.

I get that pattern making and design is a very technical discipline (I've watched enough Project Runway LOL, to get that info)...but, it also seems to me to be exactly what I want a designer doing.

I can draw a image and send it out, too. I'm not a technical fashion person (clearly as I sit in cut offs and a 4 year old Old Navy tee...) but, that to me is design.

again, maybe I'm old school or ignorant in this area (I'll cop to both of those)...but as prior, just providing my opinion and viewpoint.

thanks again for the info! Always glad to learn something new.

[CostumeCoutureNaomi]

@CoquetteBath 

"Couture" is doing it entirely by hand, from designer concept to pattern making to fittings to finished garment, for one specific body.  That is a very rare process and not possible for anything produced in quantity.  This is what I do.

Most garment making uses the process that dope uses, especially any designer that needs to rely on machinery to produce their product, where the designer is just designing, and pattern makers, CAD software engineers and other parties take the paper or computer sketch design to a physical garment.

Both of us would be considered designers in the fashion world.

[vintageNCtreasures]

This ^^^^ I noticed the same thing about someone on Fiverr created the mock-ups.

Plus if a seller uses a production partner to "make" items they design, don't those items usually ship to the buyer's from the production partners location?

The OP's production partners are in China and Mexico YET the items I looked at all ship from TX?

Are the production partners in China and Mexico shipping the items to TX?

ETA: are these production partners making these hats for anyone else?

[DopeHatsShop]

The production partners are in China and Mexico and then when they finish the products they send them to me. If they were sending them out for me it would be dropshipping.

Yes, I would assume they make hats for others. How could the produce at scale if they didn't have other business?

In Etsy's example with the dress, how can the production partner make a dress for the designer if they weren't making dresses for others? 

[audreytherese]

"Yes, I would assume they make hats for others. How could the produce at scale if they didn't have other business?"

"In Etsy's example with the dress, how can the production partner make a dress for the designer if they weren't making dresses for others? "

While they can be factories that make hats for many different businesses, the hats they make for you, with your specs, must only be sold to you. If they are selling 'your' hat design to anyone else, then this disqualifies them as being a production partner for items being sold as handmade. At that point they are mass producing and making something commercially available, and just happen to be using your design specs. 

[vintageNCtreasures]

@DopeHatsShop 

So "you" assume these 2 production partners make these same hats for other businesses?

If that is the case then that's a HUGE problem because that is NOT what a production partner is.

A production partner is someone or a company that makes items that YOU personally have designed and ONLY makes those items for you and for NO one else. 

https://help.etsy.com/hc/en-us/articles/360000336547-Working-with-Production-Partners-on-Etsy

[CustomPortraitArt]

Etsy really needs to have a mechanism for reaching a human being for errors and misunderstandings.

It looks to me, Dope, that you have told Etsy and the world all about how once you design the hats, how the hats are cadded for specs for the manufacturers, made and mailed to you for final approval and photos, but failed to include the most important thing:  That you, personally, design those hats.

If you do.  Saying there are only so many ways to make a fedora makes me wonder if having them made from a generic pattern with a unique color swatch is enough under Etsy's new policies?

[DopeHatsShop]

It is such a gray area that a human needs to review these cases, but a human cannot be reached.

Certainly our simplistic wide brim fedoras are nearly identical to the others since that is a classic style that people want, but we also have other styles, such as our pencil curl brims and bolero palm hats that are designed by myself and less common and won't have others that match as closely. I can show Etsy some of the sketches, mockups, convos with production partners, swatches I have at my desk, and even the videos my production partner in Mexico likes to send me as he is handmaking each hat.

[CostumeCoutureNaomi]

@CustomPortraitArt 

This is how the fashion industry works.

Fashion is unable to be copyrighted, as it is considered utilitarian.

Traditionally, garment patterns are based on a specific range of measurements and proportions.  Basic patterns use similar techniques, cuts and lines.  Pants (generally) will have 2 legs with the seat and rise cut in a similar way, jackets will have 2 arms, skirts will be some variation of a tube.

A scarf is going to be more or less a rectangular shape, with the variation in design being a designer selecting different fabrics or knit patterns.

A hat is going to fall into a very small measurement range with little variations within a specific style, because the human head has very little variation in size or shape.

There are only so many ways to make a fedora, or bolero, or pillbox, while still keeping it a fedora or bolero or pillbox.   If I were designing a dress with princess seamed bodice, there would be very little difference in the lines of my dress, a House of Worth dress from the 1800s, a Vera Wang gown, or a mass produced Shein discount dress.

[DopeHatsShop]

CostumeCoutureNaomi

Exactly, and our most popular hats are those that are traditional wide brim fedoras with a tear dropped shaped crown and neutral colors, so they look just like everything else. There are only so many hat molds.

We considered branding them with tags, but Etsy doesn't reply to supporting evidence anyway, so that wouldn't have helped. Also a lot of customers buy these to sell in their stores, or use them for "hat parties," so they don't want the branding anyhow.

[TwiLdCapitHog]

@CostumeCoutureNaomi  Well the "difference" matters. The "difference" is why a designer can call it their design.

[TwiLdCapitHog]

@DopeHatsShop  "There are only so many hat molds"  Since you are using the manufacturers own hat molds, what element of the design is specific to you!

[CostumeCoutureNaomi]

@TwiLdCapitHog 

If I were to offer a basic black camisole leotard in my shop, designed and sold by me, it would look virtually identical to the basic black camisole leotards designed by Capezio, Block, Weissman, etc.   The only visual difference would be the logo tag inside. With fashion basics, there is very little variance between one design or the next.  That seller's basic entry level fedora sounds like the equivalent of a designer offering a basic black leotard.

[DopeHatsShop]

TwiLdCapitHog

Only so many molds means there are only so many ways to make a hat, you cannot "reinvent the wheel" when it comes to hats, or most clothing aside from adding a graphic, which you would not be adding on a fedora. If a tire manufacturer makes a new tire all they did was change the tread pattern. It is still a rubber circle affixed to a rim. Same concept with a fedora. You aren't going to make a fedora that varies greatly from what is already being made. 

I sketch hats, make mockups, send them to production partners to collab on production, choose from samples, pick colors, materials/embellishments, and other details, have them shipped to my residence, photograph them, add listings, and then hopefully send them to customers in custom made packaging.

[TwiLdCapitHog]

@CostumeCoutureNaomi  If you add a basic black, leotard to your shop that looks exactly like millions of others being sold around the world, and claim it as your design, you will probably have the same problem as the OP.

The point is .... "Designed by" on Etsy means there are design elements about the product that are  specifically yours. That means it MUST be different in some discernable way from what the manufacturer produces for other customers.

And if there is no design element that makes it unique to you, how can you claim to have designed it.

We all use generic shapes, but it is what we bring to it that turns it into our design.

[TwiLdCapitHog]

@DopeHatsShop  "there are only so many ways to make a hat, you cannot "reinvent the wheel" when it comes to hats, or most clothing" ... I completely disagree.

You only have to look back at the history of fashion and millinery to consider that statement ridiculous.

You do fashion designers and miliners a disservice. They produce collections to "reinvent fashion" twice yearly. 

Design is infinite! To me only someone who doesn't make or design anything would make such a statement.

And regarding your example... "all they did was change the tread pattern" . And by doing so they made the design theirs. They reinvented the "design" of the wheel. 

[DopeHatsShop]

@TwiLdCapitHog

Making an elegant hat that someone can wear in a fashion show is not the same as making a fedora that your average person is going to wear with a normal, everyday outfit and at an economical price. The same traditional fedora shape and style that was popular decades ago is still popular and sells, so that is where I focus my energy.

Anyways, it is clear that only Etsy can help here and I am just going in circles. Have a good one!