Etsy not refunding fees on refunded shipping or canceled orders

[#1]

Has anyone had a problem with Etsy not refunding fees? (for refunded shipping to the buyer, and for canceled orders.  I cancel offsite ad orders)  I have noticed offsite ad fees were not refunded in the past.  Mainly because it will stay on the offsite ad page under the listing.  I had never checked my payment account to see if other fees were also not being refunded until a few days ago.  I contacted support via chat and my fees were returned.  However, I just went through my payment account for the last 3 days, and there were a LOT of fees that Etsy has kept.  The CC fees are imediately returned when I refund or cancel.  The Transaction fees, and transaction fees on shipping are not.  In the last 3 days, I have 8 instances where Etsy has kept the fees.  I thought maybe it was a delay, so I found one from a week ago and went through 10 pages of my payment account looking for the refund, and it was not refunded.  Over time, this is a substantial amount of money.  Especially since I am paying fees on items that I have not actually sold.

[Former_Member]

@CraftyCornishMaids 

Interestingly, this is what it says in your policies:

"This shop displays goods which are advertised for sale and gives information about them. By advertising goods we are inviting you to place an order. If you place an order, we are not obliged to accept that order and the contract between us will only be formed if and when we accept your order. Our acceptance of your order and the formation of a binding contract between you and us will take place when we dispatch the goods to you. Up until this point, there will be no contract in place between you and us, which means that neither you nor we will have any rights against or obligations towards the other, until the order is dispatched."

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@Former_Member 

exactly my point,

I can do it legally, as long as I don't do it for fee avoidance, which would be against etsy's tous.

YOU can't, because you do not even have a legally required right to withdraw policy at all, let alone one with the correct wording in it. as I do.

[SuperiorFireLights · Accepted solution]

Thank you to everyone accusing me of not paying Etsy fees, and no one answering my actual question.  I do NOT avoid paying Etsy.  Fee avoidance would be canceling an order, then telling the buyer to venmo the money or buy it on my own site.  I DO NOT DO THAT.  I love the Etsy selling site, but I did not agree to sell on Google or Bing.  Canceling an order, that will still sell is not avoiding a fee, as Etsy will still get the fee on the new sale.  I agree that it is uncool to do to buyers, and I apologize effusively.  If they ask how they can purchase from me, I ask them to have a friend or relative purchase for them.  Most are happy to do that. If they cannot, I have even at times, found the same item for them from another Etsy seller.  I tell them about DuckDuckGo, to use when online shopping, that does NOT charge us fees when our items come up in search.  (FYI it also doesn't put cookies on your device or track you)  I get very good reviews from these people, and they continue to shop from me.  I don't just cancel and wave a big BYE BYE.  I was a waitress for 30 years and I know a thing or two about customer service. 

[CraftyCornishMaids]

you are cancelling to avoid the offsite ad fee

that is an etsy fee

Etsy will not get the offsite ad fee from you on the new sale at all. if you force someone to buy on their behalf

that is the fee you are avoiding

and you are

I hope etsy is reading this

...

you agreed foretsy advertising your items on google, bing, and a whole lot more

if you don't want this to happen, then don't sell here

[CatsWhiskersCurios]

You are also costing Etsy money as they still have to pay for payment processing on your sale and the reversal of that sale. You get it back but Etsy doesn’t. It’s astonishing that you can’t see how unethical this is all round.

[BagmakerSupply]

@SuperiorFireLights: We have never cancelled an order with off-site fees, but we have refunded shipping and have received a credit for the applicable percentage. If you are sure that your were not credited that fee you need to contact Etsy in case there is some glitch.

Can totally understand your frustration with the off-site ads program, but you are incorrect that you "did not agree to sell on Google or Bing" - read the terms of service you agreed to by keeping your Etsy shop open.

[Former_Member]

@CraftyCornishMaids 

My original reply wasn't about me. I stated that I believed a seller has the right to cancel ANY transaction. You have just confirmed that (with the correct policies in place) that this is true.

You have also previously stated as a fact, that the transaction is completed at the point the buyer pays. But it seems you now concede that (as I have always said) the transaction is completed by the actions of the seller. If the seller does not perform those actions (eg dispatch) then the sale is not complete. Fees are only payable on completed transactions. Therefore by not completing a transaction, you are not avoiding fees, you simply aren't incurring any, that can be applied.

But I will leave you to have the last word on this, because I appreciate it is impossible for you not to!

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@Former_Member 

The sale is formed, at the point of sale, it is the EU/UK default ............

UNLESS, you change that default, in your right to withdraw policy, so it states that the contract is formed on dispatch, and that is ALSO in the email sent on purchase.

Mine is.

Only the EU and UK sellers can do that on Etsy.

The OP can't even do it, as they are in USA

You could, however as you don't even have a legally required right to withdraw policy, let alone one changing the default, I think you are not up to speed with online selling laws - or you choose to sell illegally, neither of which, inspires me with confidence in what you say.

[TeaforTexas]

I am sorry about the trouble you're having. It all comes from Etsy's policy of advertising seller's items on Google and other search engines, then making us pay 26% when someone buys them. Who expects a business to survive that is charged 26% in fees and commissions?

And why is Etsy spending money for ads telling buyers about great deals on Etsy, but not letting them know that they charge sellers 26% when buyers follow a link from Google?

I think it's great that you tell Etsy buyers about DuckDuckGo when shopping online. I hadn't thought of that.  I wonder if the Brave browser also helps to avoid the fee? I think if more Etsy sellers told buyers about the exorbitant search engine fee, they'd shop on Etsy, not on Google. Which would be great for everyone!

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@TeaforTexas 

I think you will find most people don't even know they are clicking on google ads

If you are getting a lot of google ads, compared to etsy searches, your seo is set up for them

re-look at etays latest standards, ranking criteria and search information, it's changed quite a lot in the last year.

.. your pictures are heavily cropped, etsy's picture search will be struggling with a lot of your photos.

They should be uploaded square if possible, or landscape 4:3, as long as the square crop will still see the image, and not portrait at all, with the shortest side 2000px

fix them before you upload, don't use etsy's crop tool

[Former_Member]

@CraftyCornishMaids LOL!

[TeaforTexas]

I have had that problem.  I had to cancel a large purchase from a buyer this morning.  The buyer used a non-Etsy search engine, so the search engine fee was big.  So was the transaction.  Etsy refunded the buyer completely immediately.  But, for the first time, Etsy did not fully refund me! They refunded the sales tax, and the processing fee, which are the smallest parts. But now, because Etsy didn't fully refund me for the cancelled sale, my payment account shows a negative balance.  It's been over 12 hours since I cancelled the sale, so I contacted Etsy support.  Someone "chatted" with me about it.  She maintains it can take 24 to 48 hours for an Etsy seller to get a refund after cancelling a sale. And there's another problem: I told her I am concerned that come Monday morning, Etsy will charge the negative balance to my credit card on file!

I've heard rumors that Etsy has a cash flow problem--this makes me think Etsy is secretly borrowing seller's money. Has anyone else had this problem?  

[swatchoclock]

@TeaforTexas so you told your customer they used the wrong search engine, told them you would be cancelling and asked them to come back in 30 days? How about adjusting your prices for offsite ads fees?

[CraftyCornishMaids]

That is fee avoidance, you can get your shop shut for that

If they did not request a cancellation and say they wanted it back on their card.

If you just did it when you shouldn't, then etsy gives the customer 48 hours to decide if they want an etsy credit, or card refund,

It was your actions that caused this

[GroundZeroCreations]

I have never had a problem with Etsy refunding fees when an order was cancelled. But then I have never cancelled an offsite ad order. As much as I hear where you are coming from, Etsy TOS clearly outline the fee as being part of the program for selling on Etsy. I agree that these fees are outrageous and when they hit on a big order they can be painful. But this is part of doing business on Etsy. 

As for your statement that Etsy is not refunding the fees this is what Etsy says:

"What happens after I cancel a sale?
Once it is canceled, Etsy considers an order or transaction to be over and voided. However, it can take up to 48 hours for the cancellation to fully process, and 3 to 5 days for the refund to appear in the buyer’s account. During this time, a review can be left and edited if the order is still within its review eligibility window."

So it may be that you will still receive those fees back. If you look at your monthly summary, it is easier to see what Etsy is taking out for offsite ads fees. Compare that to what you think you have paid Etsy going through the accounting figures. Go to your seller dashboard and click "finance", then click "monthly statements". Under the seller services click "marketing". You will then be able to see your total offsite ads fees for the month up to whatever point you are in the month. You can also see how many sales you had and how many refunds you processed. If you want to see your other fees, click the fees link. When I factor in all fees (not shipping), I have currently paid 16.5% fees to date this month. That is higher than what I pay on Amazon because Amazon charges you a flat commission while Etsy splits up their fee and the credit card processing fee.  

However, I think just as concerning for you is the fact that Etsy can close a shop that frequently cancels orders. I bet the buyers were at the least disappointed when you cancelled orders and it does effect the buyer experience and their opinion of Etsy overall. And that is the reason Etsy will sometimes suspend a shop for excessive cancellations. 

I recommend that you factor in the possibility of offsite ads fees into your pricing. Etsy says the average seller will see about 10% of their orders will be effected by offsite ads. I would suggest raising your prices across the board by 3%. This should be an adequate price increase to cover any loss resulting from Etsy offsite ads fees. And the increase is still small enough that buyers are unlikely to notice.

Because it is done online, we don't stop and think that we are still signing a contract with Etsy when we open a shop. If we had pen and paper and had to actually read the entire contract, we would understand that we are bound by these terms. We can't sign a contract and then disagree with the terms of said contract. You are legally required to honor the terms. If you feel that is something you cannot do, then I would suggest that you find another place to sell your products. I don't say that to be mean, but because it is much easier to set your own exit schedule than to wait for Etsy to shut your shop down for excessive cancellations.