Etsy not refunding fees on refunded shipping or canceled orders

[SuperiorFireLights]

Has anyone had a problem with Etsy not refunding fees? (for refunded shipping to the buyer, and for canceled orders.  I cancel offsite ad orders)  I have noticed offsite ad fees were not refunded in the past.  Mainly because it will stay on the offsite ad page under the listing.  I had never checked my payment account to see if other fees were also not being refunded until a few days ago.  I contacted support via chat and my fees were returned.  However, I just went through my payment account for the last 3 days, and there were a LOT of fees that Etsy has kept.  The CC fees are imediately returned when I refund or cancel.  The Transaction fees, and transaction fees on shipping are not.  In the last 3 days, I have 8 instances where Etsy has kept the fees.  I thought maybe it was a delay, so I found one from a week ago and went through 10 pages of my payment account looking for the refund, and it was not refunded.  Over time, this is a substantial amount of money.  Especially since I am paying fees on items that I have not actually sold.

[PoochandTabby]

Are these only on offsite orders or all orders that you are refunding?

You've cancelled 8 orders in the last 3 days and not had the fees refunded or there is 8 various fees total in the last 3 days you've not had refunded yet?

In July, I refunded an offsite ad order, and while it still showed on my offsite page, it did show that it was refunded and the fee was $0.00.

There was another seller in the forum a few days ago who was cancelling offsite orders and her fees were not being refunded as well. As mentioned to that seller, keep in mind that even though offsite ads are forced on us if you hit the monetary threshold, you do agree to them through the terms of use for being on Etsy. 

You're also not allowed to engage in any behaviour for the purpose of avoiding fees. If you're refunding just because they're offsite sales, that could be considered fee avoidance. Those are two things that can get your shop shut down. 

There was also another thread in the forum talking about now that buyers can choose between an Etsy credit or a refund back to their method of payment, there might be a delay between when the refund is done on your end and when the buyer confirms which way they want their refund, but I believe they said it would only be 48 hours and not sure if that delays the fees coming back to you. Perhaps someone who has done a refund recently can advise on that. 

Did support tell you anything about why they were not being refunded when you asked them?

[SuperiorFireLights]

No, I refund all shipping overcharges that are greater than $1.  Most of them are the transaction fee on shipping that is not being refunded to me.  The Etsy rules state that I cannot avoid to pay Etsy fees, and I do not.  Those fees will be paid when another customer purchases the item through Etsy.   I am NOT going to pay a total of 27-35+% in fees.  But that is a different arguement.  On Oct 8, I refunded $75 in a shipping overcharge for a combined order.  (that is the farthest I have gone back so far)  It has been over a week, and the transaction fee for shipping has still not been refunded to me.  I have 9 total orders (some with 1 fee, some with 2 fees) that have not been refunded, since Oct 8.

[CryzalisMasksUK]

It may have something to do with multiple refunds, especially if they are all off site ad orders. The other day, I combined 2 orders and refunded the excess shipping as the customer paid twice for shipping. All the fees regarding the 2nd shipping payment were also instantly credited to my account.

[SuperiorFireLights]

They are not all offsite ad orders.  Most are refunded shipping orders.

[CraftyCornishMaids]

It is against etsy's tous to cancel offsite ad orders in order to avoid the fees,

They have paid for all the ad clicks, and etsy has to pay the payment processor twice, once for processing the order, and then for the refund.

maybe they are fed up with you costing them money, and are now keeping the fees.

It is also appalling customer service, people can take ages looking for vintage items, then they find just waht they want and buy it, and you cancel, because you won't stick to the tous YOU agreed with etsy to sell here

Don't do it, or soon you will not have a shop at all

[SuperiorFireLights]

Etsy does not pay for ad clicks.  100% of the fees are paid by the seller in the offsite ad fee.  I agreed to pay Etsy's fees, and I do, 100%.  I DO NOT avoid paying Etsy fees.  Avoiding fees would be canceling an order, then messaging the buyer to pay me on Venmo.  I do not do that.  

[mommawhazelsquilts]

Did I read that right?  8 cancellations in 3 days?  

[SuperiorFireLights]

no, you did not.  I refund extra shipping.

[PillowDetails]

There was a similar post yesterday, where the  Seller admitted canceling all their orders with Offsite fees.  Looks like Etsy is finally keeping the fees when they find out Sellers are doing this.

Not fair to your Buyers - we all need to figure a way to make it work, if we want to continue to sell on Etsy.

[Duckwells]

Your poor buyers don’t deserve this treatment.  Figure out a way to accommodate these fees, don’t punish buyers who were probably so happy to find the item and looked forward to receiving it.  Worse yet, it might be the perfect gift for someone special and they are looking forward to giving it to them.  Then you abruptly cancel because you don’t accept all Etsys fees while selling on Etsy.

[SuperiorFireLights]

I am not going to raise prices to accomodate google or bing.  I am not going to pay an average 30% in fees on offsite ad orders. That is unacceptable on every level.

[CatsWhiskersCurios]

"Especially since I am paying fees on items that I have not actually sold."

Except you have sold them, and are expecting not only your buyers to be fine with their orders being cancelled, but for Etsy to take a hit on the processing costs and the reversal of the transaction.  It's unethical, to say the least.  And a sure fire way to ensure those buyers never come back. Hopefully Etsy has spotted the repeat pattern and is taking at least some of what is rightfully theirs. 

[SuperiorFireLights]

Etsy will still get their fees when I actually sell the item.  Etsy is not losing out on anything.  Almost all of my buyers are very understanding.  If they ask how to purchase, I ask them to have a friend or relative purchase for them and they are more than happy to do it that way.  Do you see any bad reviews about any of this?  No.  And they still leave me excellent reviews.

[Former_Member]

Probably in contradiction to many here, I believe a seller has the right to cancel or decline ANY transaction.

I also believe that if there is no sale, then there are no fees and therefore it isn't fee avoidance, anymore than it would be for any other cancellation.

Plus, I am not aware of anyone, ever, saying that they have been accused of this by Etsy, in all the years that they have imposed the Off Site Ad Fees.

I do agree this is unfair on customers and can create a poor impression of purchasing from Etsy. 

But I blame Etsy for this, not the sellers.

Bring on the "But this is what you signed up for" comments!!

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@Former_Member 

I also believe that if there is no sale, then there are no fees and therefore it isn't fee avoidance, anymore than it would be for any other cancellation.

sale is completed on purchase,

the person purchased, there was a sale

In the USA, where the OP is, they still have to report it as a sale on their taxes, and the refund as an expense

the seller decided to cancel the order, solely to avoid paying the offsite ad fees, it was the only reason, it is 100% fee avoidance

and it's a £$%^&*() thing to do to a buyer, I would be reporting the shop to etsy, If I were the buyer

[digitaldoodlebug]

We can cancel orders as needed. But this directly goes against etsy TOU we agreed to. Sellers get upset when buyers ignore their policies. Well, TOU is etsy's policies. Like someone refunding an order and saying you can purchase from my website instead. Refunding doesn't mean there was no sale, it refunds the sale that was placed. And like crafty said that lines up with taxes also which say it was a sale. 

And yes it creates a very poor buying experience. If it's an offsite ad it may be someone's first interaction with etsy. How likely do you think they are to return?

It's a terrible thing etsy did forcing successful shops into it. But it is what it is and we have to account for the extra fees.

[CryzalisMasksUK]

You agree to the fees when you sign up.

Orders should only be cancelled if the customer request it or if you can not for any reason provide that product.

I would also not return to a shop who cancelled my order which I paid for, especially if I saw the product still available for sale.

[SuperiorFireLights]

Thank you for some sanity.  All these people piling on me, and not one of them has actually answered my question.  

[Former_Member]

@CraftyCornishMaids Thank you for your contribution.

We've had this discussion/debate before.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe, run your shop in whatever way you want to and take whatever punitive actions you think appropriate.

Nothing you say on this matter will ever change my opinion.

[CraftyCornishMaids]

@Former_Member 

you can't cancel unless the customer requests it

You are in the UK, and don't have the correct information in your right to withdraw policy to be able to do it

in fact, you don't have the legally required right to withdraw policy at all,

'nuff said

[NanaLetha]

@SuperiorFireLights  When you opened your shop you agreed to the fees. If you are so unhappy here why not sell elsewhere.

[SuperiorFireLights]

When I opened my shop, I was not aware that the 6% fee on the item price and shipping, + the 3.5 % fee on the CC, could actually be a total fee of 30%.  (that is not something that they tell you, is it?)  It was not until I had spent thousands of hours building my shop, that I started getting hit with it, and I could not opt out.  I am not unhappy on Etsy, I love the high standards and I love the platform.  But this is my only income, and I am not handing money over to Google so they can install more gold toilets on their 50 million dollar yachts.  These orders will eventually sell, I will make the money that my hard work earns, and Etsy will get 100% of their fees, and I gladly give it to them.

[CatsWhiskersCurios]

Etsy sets out its fee structure very clearly in the handbook. It’s your responsibility to know and understand this when you set up your shop.

[Former_Member]

@NanaLetha 

Do you have a different response / suggestion for those of us who were here and opened our shops BEFORE these fees were introduced and imposed upon us?