Etsy Closed a Case at 4am

[TheArtsyOasis]

TLDR: An old woman opens a case against me at 10pm because her international order didn't arrive within 2 weeks, Etsy refunds her out of my own pocket at 4am, all while I'm asleep, then tells me I should've responded to the case.

An older lady ordered from my shop and I shipped it out in the correct time frame to Australia from the U.S. After only a week, the woman contacted me for a replacement because she didn't think the (actively moving in transit) order would make it in time for her granddaughters birthday that I was never made aware of. I of course reply and explain that the order is on its way and that international shipping takes longer.

She never responds, instead, a few days later she emails me where I have to explain to her again that I have no control over the speed at which USPS or Global Postal Services work. 

Then, a few more days goes by and she emails me but puts her entire message in the subject line, saying "Don't order from (My Name)!! I ordered on July 26th and my order still isn't here!!" To which I respond and let her know she is only sending this to me, and yet again explain the process and that her order is still moving in transit.

Then comes to last night at 10pm when I'm asleep. She opens a case against me saying she's upset her order isn't there already, then at 4am, Etsy closes the case and refunds her out of my pocket. 

Isn't this what the new Etsy Protection program is for? No, apparently because I don't have an estimated delivery date, (you know, the ones the Etsy already provides when you go to a listing and put your zip code in?) that I don't apply for it. I have all over my shop that after I ship an item, the delivery date is out of my control.

So then another Etsy Support person tells me that they refunded her because it was my responsibility to respond to the open case and I failed to do that.... at 4am..... when I was asleep... 

Still waiting to hear what the outcome is, but this is insanity.

[Adorabilities · Accepted solution]

Did Etsy have a tracking number for the shipment? If they could see it was in transit (and not late), they should not have refunded, and certainly not from your funds. 
The fact that two support people told you that you lost the case for different reasons isn't great either.

[TheArtsyOasis]

Yep, one of them even acknowledged that I had tracking and said I needed to provide it directly to the buyer to avoid these situations, even though she obviously already had it because she was upset it was in one spot for a few days. None of this makes any sense.

[CryzalisDesigns]

You can set the best estimated delivery time in the world, but does not change the fact that you have no control over the postal services, especially international postal. If she ordered on the 26th from the United States to Australia, surely she would have known this takes several weeks? What is ETSY playing at refunding in such a short time when tracking is still showing it is on it's way? Seems Etsy protection program is also not worth it's weight when buyers are not even given the time to respond to cases

[CryzalisDesigns]

also not sure how the tracking works from the United States to Australia but assume it is the same as When I send from Europe, the parcel travels to the airport the same day and is put on the Flight, if it is going to the United States, the tracking will not move for 5-7 days even though it arrived in the United States within 24hours of dispatch from The Netherlands, the tracking will not start moving until USPS has scanned the parcel in their own time.

[AnnaleasFinest]

@TheArtsyOasis 

I definitely feel you and your disappointment, but let me ask you real quick why the buyers age is relevant...?

"TLDR: An old woman opens a case.."

Do you think she's a bit incompetent...? ☺

Buyers of all ages can be clueless when it comes to international transit times.... : - ) No offence intended!

"I don't have an estimated delivery date".

You can quickly add those, that's good standard.

For now it's too late, but for the future, you can avoid the buyer's panic that an item won't make it in time to a special day with :

" Your plan B is this:

Print out a photo from my shop, giftwrap it with a ribbon and gifttag, and present this, and explain that it's travelling around the planet to her an will arrive shortly. Buyers have reported back that the giftees were more than happy to wait. It's tangible, it's something to show around, and special, because it's from far away in a world journey. "

Reassure her that it's very successful.

If she doesn't have a printer, maybe a relative, a friend or neighbor, or even a shop can print it for her.

Explain, how the parcel tracking won't show updates while customs have it but will soon start moving again, -it's important that you check up on buyers regularly and reassure them.

As to Etsy refunding her out of your pocket, maybe you can explain to them that you were asleep...

I hope that the new program qualifies...!

[BarkingRockJewelry]

hmmm....yet another complaint about older buyers on Etsy.

It's starting to appear that antiques like us should take our business elsewhere.

[MyCupTeaMiniatures]

You have control in your delivery times, just extend them. I don't understand why the "old lady" adjective in the case, young people dont ask for refunds or wants a quick delivery? Lol

[SiroccoAndNorth]

I've just had a look at one of your listings and it has ready to ship in 1-7 days but no delivery times for me in the UK. This leaves it open to imagination.

You have information elsewhere but not in the most important place. As we know buyers don't read everything including descriptions and FAQs.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with the refunds but your estimated delivery times should be set up so they are visible before purchase. 

I would take out the reference to old, elderly. It's actually offensive and has nothing to do with your situation. 

Nice earrings by the way! 

[CraftyCornishMaids · Accepted solution]

@TheArtsyOasis 

I have checked quite a few of your listings, and they don't have delivery estimates

.............................

Etsy seller protection requires YOU to enter an estimated delivery date, (or enter a shipper and shipping class, so etsy can calculate it) it is very clear about that, they need to be in, or you don't have seller protection.

Etsy only lets customers open a case, after estimated delivery date - or it calculates it as 10 days after shipping (international), if you don't have one.

So, put your estimated delivery dates in, and make them realistic, it's down to you

....

Etsy gives 48 hours for you to sort things out, after the first message, it's then 48 hours before the buyer can open a case, (and it also has to be after expected delivery date) once the case is open, etsy will look to see if you qualify for seller protection, and you don't, so they close the case in the buyers favour, as it has not arrived, and refund from you, as you have no seller protection.
(This is very simple programming, and can be done by a bot, it doesn't need any input from you or Etsy)

.....

these are the critical things

For cases where the item does not arrive, Etsy Purchase Protection protects sellers for orders that are shipped, but ultimately not received at their final destination. Sellers who meet the eligibility criteria outlined here may not be held financially responsible for such non-delivery cases that result in a buyer refund.

Eligibility Criteria

E. Include processing times on your listing and ship your order within those stated processing times. You must also have an Estimated Delivery Date (EDD) for a listing, which includes transit times and, where applicable, zip code. Informal agreements through Etsy Messages to change the shipping date will not qualify; we use the processing times you set for each listing to determine the ship-by date.

Sellers are responsible for refunding costs for orders that fall outside of these requirements

[CarpetCollectionAU]

@TheArtsyOasis As an Australian Lady who would probably be considered on the "older" side, may I sugest it is not a good idea to assume the age of any Buyer has anything to do with their rights when purchasing on-line?

Additionally, I am assuming you decided this Buyer was an "Old Lady" because she had grandchildren? Plenty of people are grandparents as early as 40, so do not be so quick to make judgements about your Buyers, as these may well be way off the mark.

It is not unreasonable for a Buyer to expect a quick delivery as you give absolutely no indication of delivery timeframes.

Yet I note you do offer, for delivery to Australia,  USPS Priority Mail International ($ 56.96) and USPS Priority Mail Express International ($ 71.49). Both of these options do have estimated Delivery Dates. But your Standard International ($ 20.24) for delivery to Australia has no estimated Delivery Timeframe. This is your issue.

I suggest you spend a little time working out how best to give every Buyer, no matter their Location or Age, the best and most accurate information about their Order Deliver as is possible. I suspect that the Etsy "bots" would have not processed an automatic refund if everything in your Shop was "as it should be".

Not all "old people" are ignorant of their rights and I suspect that your "old person" was probably more understanding of her rights as a Buyer than you were of your responsibilities as a Seller.

[DragonflyDreams1]

I was a very happy grandma at the old age of 41!

[EightMileVintage]

Several here have mentioned resetting the delivery times. Where is that? I just looked at my USPS shipping profiles and all I see is an option to change my processing times. I'm stuck with the standard USPS delivery times that Etsy puts into each profile. Those are no longer accurate, as sellers here have found out.

[TheCozyHoneycomb]

Unfortunately we can’t change estimated delivery times when using USPS and calculated shipping. 

You can overestimate processing times, which I’ve considered, but I don’t want to deter anyone from buying. I’ve done that a little bit by choosing “ships in one to two business days” when I normally ship the next day. I still sometimes see the “may arrive late” message when buying the label! So frustrating. 

[CraftyCornishMaids]

I put "other" and put in my own.

however, the OP doesn't have any, their own, or usps's

[MyOrganisedHome]

Since when has ‘old’ become an acceptable pejorative?

Becoming old is better than the alternative!

[TheArtsyOasis]

Hey everyone.
I should've said older woman not old, but using either adjective was not meant to offend. I searched for a place to delete or edit this post but cannot find it.

I know she is older because of her granddaughter and the fact that she was emailing me and putting her whole message into the subject line, telling me not to buy from myself, and because she assumed I had some type of control over making her package get to her quicker after I already shipped it.

I did inform her of an estimated delivery time multiple times. I can only make so much progress in finding a solution for her if she doesn't respond to my replies.
Yes it is reasonable for her to want her package in a timely fashion, but I told her specifically that orders to Australia have taken up to 2 months before and that 2 weeks was unrealistic in my experience and with the shipping she chose.

I realize now this is not the place for this post. This was a very frustrating situation where I felt as if Etsy was not properly looking into the situation before making a quick call and giving me the run around as to why the refund was processed at 4 am when I couldn't do anything about it.
I do apologize if I offended anyone, as that was clearly not my intent from this post. However I am reading a lot of things that are not accurate or people saying my shop doesn't include things that it does, I don't have time to go through it all. 

For those interested, an Etsy support person finally reimbursed me after taking the time to read what actually happened. 

[ColorfulCastAndCrew]

Glad to hear Etsy made it right but sellers shouldn't have to fight to get their money. You shipped the order on time with tracking so I fail to see how Etsy thought you should take the fall because an order didn't arrive sooner than what is even expected.

[DragonflyDreams1]

I am happy to hear Etsy made it right. 

I also understand your use of the descriptive, but it is an example of how cautious you need to be. I was declared racist in these forums because I stated a specific country that is known for mass manufacturing. 

[moonbeamgifts]

Two weeks for an international delivery would be a miracle.....  

Sorry you've had to plod through this and I see it's now rectified but also the amount of time/labor tracking down your money for an item shipped appropriately and within guidelines is frustrating.   :   (

[TheArtsyOasis]

Thank you. People are taking what I said out of context, it's very discouraging. The issue isn't with being old or a grandmother, it's not understanding how ordering from a small business online works and not wanting to be educated on it.  I appreciate you!!

[FabioMcMustache · Accepted solution]

Hello!

We appreciate everyone's feedback, and since OP's question has already been addressed in detail (and their case came to a satisfactory conclusion, as well), I'll go ahead and close this thread to prevent it from going off-topic.

Please reach out to to etsy.me/help if you have any questions, and make sure to review our Community Policies.

Thank you!