need tagging help

[Former_Member]

please help with my tagging...

Thanks

Clare

[Former_Member]

Hi Clare!
howabout after supper? I made and apple pie and some meatloaf here. The other night I made some Sheppard's Pie but I was not crazy about it. I need a better recipe.
In the mean time could you do some reading on the purpose of tags?

[Former_Member]

Continued -----
In essence Clare suppose I was a potential customer, some one with the objective of finding some where on the internet a Crocheted or knitted baby bonnet for a new grandchild for sale.
How do you think I might go about meeting that objective.
What do you think I might do to find one and how would I go about doing that?

That could be a very important step in knowing just how important a clear title is as to what is for sale and what role tags play in finding something.

[Former_Member]

O.k., Clare I am back.
The meat loaf was basic and makes an o.k. main dish in this case. My apple pie was digestible but I need to come up with a better crust then the store bought one. I still need a shepherds pie recipe that is better than the one I used and does not use dairy products due to food allergies.
You are in England and I am sure have not seen a response yet and I have looked at your shop to see your products.
Your new baby is going to be an exciting time I am sure.
I absolutely love Crocheted items and have two heavy sweaters that are both crocheted and make feel as if I am handsome when I wear them. I get complements and I am just vain enough to appreciate them.
But
and there is always a but. Phoenix is known for over a hundred days a year with the temperature over 100 degrees F. This is not a climate where a heavy sweater is required very often and I rarely get a chance to wear them.
Which does nothing for answering your question. But it would be a big help if you were to respond with additional information.
Such as for example, why would I as a potential customer want to look for a baby bonnet or hat for a newborn baby?
How do you see me doing that?
What mechanism do you have in mind that I would use to search for and ultimately find what I was looking for?
In essence, I have some idea what it is that I want and I have enough money in my pocket to pay for it.
So where would I go and what would I do to find what I am looking for.
Think about that for a moment and give me an idea of what I might do and what I might expect to see.
If you really do not have a good idea of that, look at this question from another view point.
Suppose I lived down the road from your house and knew you and your name and that you made crocheted items and I came and knocked on your door and asked you to make me a baby hat.
What is it that you would need to know in order to produce a product that satisfied my request.
Think about that! \
Because if I have some idea what I want then the way to find it is to describe what I want in some way or another so some one on the internet can understand taht request and tell me through a product listing that they have already made one and it matches what I am looking for.
So there for, if I were to want you to make one, what things would you have to know in order for you to make a product that matches what I am looking for?
And also keep in mind my knowledge of crochet, the materials and the colors might be significantly less than yours so how I describe what I am looking for might be in significantly simpler and less precise terms than yours too.
Inquiring minds would like to know. Whose? Mine!

[Former_Member]

Remind me again why you were talking about meatloaf? apple pie? and shepherds pie?

[Former_Member]

ohsolush from ohsolush says
Remind me again why you were talking about meatloaf? apple pie? and shepherds pie?
=======================
Mostly because I can, and to give an indication I saw your request for assistance and you are not being ignored and in part to fill in space while waiting for some response to my request for additional information.
Did you supply any?
Because I do not see one.
The problem with an off the cuff vague response to a minimally asked question is that it most probably will be of no help what so ever. In that it is difficult to ascertain what your expectations are and what you expect to see.
Why?
Because a tag is not some form of advertisement to induce a prospective shopper to enter your store and browse through things, but instead is a mechanical definition in that a Tag along with the Title is an alternative method of identifying the product you have for sale.
Why alternative?
The search engine reads Tags and Titles to find products when used.
It does not read the description.
However a person using a search engine will attempt to define what it is they are looking for by using words to create some form of verbal picture that represents what is being looked for. The search engine will then go through product listings here on Etsy and attempt to match words used in the listings to words used in the search request to create a list of things, products found and place them on a list of things and present the list to the person searching to read and choose from.
It is to your benefit to be on that list some where. Preferably towards the front of the list. But how is that done? There are many factors involved there but a few of the biggest are matches of words and phrases found to words and phrases used in the search request. Brevity of terms and words used in the actual listing. That is the more words used to list something with the further down the list generated something will be based on the number of listing words not matched to anything with in the search request.
And probability. That is on the listing the probability of words actually being used to find things with vs words and phrases that may never be used.
So once the listing is ready to be placed in the store if you were to read the Tags and the Titles would they as a method of communication create a verbal picture that is identical to not only the real picture but also the verbal picture created by the Title and the Description.
And if the tags and title do not create an identical picture? They are simply not doing their job.
You as a seller do not create a list of products for me to look at. I do. The list generated by my search request is dependent on the terms I use to create my search request and how well they match to words used in your product list.
That to you is an unknown factor. You would have no idea what I am going to say. However the term probability enters here. What is the probability that you and I would describe things the same way? That will depend on how well I can describe something using terms that I know and the probability is that I know basic commonly used words and phrases.
So thus so should you in your listing practices.
Common Colors, common materials, common methods.
I may or may not know or care whether something is knitted vs. crocheted. I might know the type of yarns I want to see something in because wool for example is a factor in allergies. Wool is also one of the best yarns terms of warmth. But I might want an Acrylic due to ease of maintenance. What name will I use to define what I am looking for? Hat? Bonnet? Beanie? Cap or something else. How will I define age? Newborn? Three months? or just the number 3?
Why? Because if you expect to be on my list of things did you include the probability of these terms being used. They are to some extent synonyms driven by colloquiums. That is commonly used terms driven by area differences. Things like color? Will the colour be describes as Purple? Or as Lilac? Or is their another colour that can be called by either name.
And did you take into account all of those possibilities on your listing? Because if you did not the probability is your product listing will not be on the list generated by my product search.
Now as I evaluate my product search list one factor that I will take into account initially is the length of my search list.
I generally will ignore anything past page 5 on any list of things I generate with my search. Why? I have better things to do with my time so I well change my search request to better reflect what I want to see. How? There are many methods, but they all involve with scanning a list for various things like color and materials or techniques or embellishments or styles and the lists go on and then modify my search to incorporate those things thus making MY list more relevant to my desires and also shorter.
So taking some of those things in to account and not knowing at all what your expectations are I will look at one of your product listings and evaluate what I see on it. This one;

http://www.etsy.com/listing/118557918/lilac-baby-hat-baby-bonnet-newborn-hat

Looking at the picture it is a perfectly delightful product. One that I am sure was made with great care and skill and of a color that I would pretty much be satisfied with.
But would it be on my list and thus seen?

So let me create a search.
I would like to find a crocheted babies hat.

http://www.etsy.com/search?q=Crocheted%20Baby%20Hat.&order=most_relevant&view_type=list&ship_to=ZZ
pretty much some almost 96,000 baby hats. Or would it be Babies Hats.
http://www.etsy.com/search?q=Crocheted%20Baby%20Hat.&order=most_relevant&view_type=list&ship_to=ZZ
which appears superficially to be exactly the same search. But was that known by either of us when it was started. Is Baby and Babies a plural term associated the same way? It seems so.
But what good is the search. With 96,000 items that is some where around 2,400 pages of them. And the point? There is only room for 240 pages which means only 10% of the available products will be able to be seen and will yours be on the list? And for my purposes will it make any differences? I don’t plan on looking past 4 pages. Which means I will change my search request to better define what I want to see.
I will add a color. Purple.
Did you have that colour and/or any other synonym for that color anywhere in your title and tags?
http://www.etsy.com/search?q=Crocheted%20Baby%20Hat%20Purple&view_type=list&ship_to=ZZ

Now there are about 135 pages or about 6000 products. Which represents 131 more pages then I am going to look at and in addition where is your product on my list. I don’t know. But I do know that all products that do not have the words I am using for my search request in the search field are not there. And what is the search field? Title and Tags.
As the list is still way too long I will now add another word to my search request to further define what I want and to shorten My list.
I will add the number 3 to indicate size. Now the search engine will look for all listings with the number 3 in them. That will indicate age. 3 months or three years. But I already have the word baby in my search so the word baby plus the word 3 will further define a 3 MONTH old BABY. Rather than a 3 year old child.
http://www.etsy.com/search?q=Crocheted%20Baby%20Hat%20purple%203&order=most_relevant&view_type=list&...
The list is now down to 900 products on 23 pages and reflect a purple baby hat for a 3 month old child. Still more than I have any interest in looking at but it is time to see what is on page one.
The first item is this one:
http://www.etsy.com/listing/91276572/crochet-baby-hat-purple-3-to-6-months?ref=sr_list_5&ga_search_q...

A product that exactly met what I am looking for.
And read the title. A short concise and clear representation of what the product is. More or less 8 words that give color, product (baby hat), color and size.
And when you go to the tags they are all single word tags.
and when you read the description it creates a verbal picture that matches the title and tags.

That is exactly what I am looking for. The materials say it is an acrylic yarn.
Why is it number one? Probably because it pretty much matches exactly my search request with the fewest number of words used.

Where as this listing is also on page one and meets my definition of what I want to see.
http://www.etsy.com/listing/90155730/baby-hat-0-3-months-purple-lavender?ref=sr_list_15&ga_search_qu...
However when you go through this listing as why the word count is higher as are the number of phrases but there is a number of 100% phrase matching along with individual word matching to allow this particular listing to be very close to the top of my list. This is due to very careful wording by the person creating the listing.

The title reads like this.
Baby Hat, 0 - 3 months, Purple, Lavender, Lilac, Baby Photo Prop, Photo Prop, Crochet Flower, Sweetness In Smyrna, READY TO SHIP

Where as this title reads this way;
Lilac baby hat, baby bonnet, newborn hat, baby hat, hat, beanie, 0-3 months
While this title is indeed shorter it is also repetitious in content. And that repetition is pretty much pointless.

Why one is placed better than the other is probably more small differences in a number of things. All of which are too small to be able to identify specifically as to what is a better way or not.
But in general, a clear and easy to read title using terms that have a high probability of being used by some one looking for something is far better than a collage of words that may or may not have anything to do with the product is a better approach as is or are tags.
Tags many times are better off being single word tags rather than phrases unless when a phrase is used as a tag it has on it’s own merits a high probability of being used to search with.

Tags such as these:
Children Baby Hat crochet baby hat baby girl baby hat baby flower hat accessories infant hat purple lavender lilac baby crochet hat baby girl hat handmade 0 to 3 months vintage

are a combination of individual words and phrases that have a good probability of being used to find something with
where as tags like these:
Children Baby Hat crochet beanie hat newborn crochet hats crocheted baby hats newborn crochet hat crochet beanie hats crocheting hats crochet girls hat crocheted hat kids crochet hats crochet hat for baby crochet hat babies crochet hat crochet hats
that are all phrases must have exact phrase match to have any value at all and to counteract the total word count built up with their use.

So it is difficult for me to suggest a tag for your product. I can not. You made them, they are beautiful and I am sure wonderfully made. But the tag needs to work with the Title to describe what they are. The tag is not going to function as an inducement to encourage one to enter your shop to browse.
Your tag is a substitute for the description and if it is a poor substitute. You need to take a better look at the formatting of them to insure that un-needed repetitiveness does not exist and probability of use by some one looking is high.
I hope this is of some help to you and if further help can be supplied it is offered. But in order to be effective it also must be a two way street. I need something from you, what your expectations are and maybe something can be worked out.
That and
if you have a good shepherds pie recipe I am open for that too.

[Former_Member]

Now that post helped me..thank you!!

Shepherds pie recipe, try greatlittleideas.com ...

[rioritajewelry]

Would like some apple pie right now....

[Former_Member]

I have another question for you uncljohn....so ive done some work on my tagging and titles and for example my crochet pink hat can be found third page when i type in pink baby hat...brilliant...

https://www.etsy.com/listing/118559718/crochet-dark-pink-baby-hat-pink-baby-hat?ref=sr_gallery_5&ga_...

Like most of my items can be found first few pages when typing that in but my question is if i was a buyer and i just typed in 'baby hat' because i wasnt sure what colour and lets say i didnt care for the age, how can i word my tagging and title for that??? Ive tried with this blue hat but im still on page 12 or something...

https://www.etsy.com/listing/118990242/newborn-baby-hat-baby-hat-blue

Is there a way of being found in both for example if i typed in 'baby hat' and if i typed in 'blue hat'?

Thanks Clare

[Former_Member]

Not really Clare.
Reality says what you want to do and every one wants their product to show up first on some ones search is one of enormous magnitude.
A giant number game.
Take your search for example, the one that says
"Baby Hat"
http://www.etsy.com/search?q=baby%20hat&order=most_relevant&view_type=list&ship_to=ZZ
and look at the result and then analyze it.
There are 159,000+ results.
And do the math to understand the magnitude of what you want to do.
There are 40 items per search result page.
That gives about 4000 pages of results.
The first problem is this huge number.
Part of that is only 250 pages are going to be displayed.
That is about 6% of the total number of results are even going to be able to be seen.
Of that you want your hat to show up by page 12
But that is .04% of those pages OR
.003% of the original 4000 pages.
As a seller, do you really think there is enough knowledge available to create a listing that will respond to a .003% criteria.
Frankly I would be happy to come up with something that hit 5% and that is the first 200 pages out of 4000.
And pretty much that is way too many because face it. How many customers are going to plow their way through 200 pages of baby hats?
In my opinion not many.
What must be depended on as a seller. Is this. Your potential customer PROBABLY has some familiarity with searching for things on the internet.
You have to depend on that.
Why?
Because if they were not comfortable with internet shopping they probably are out strolling through a store some where.
Your potential customer has some idea of what they want to ultimately purchase.
What I am trying to say, some one looking for a blouse or a skirt or coffee table book is not going to suddenly decide to buy a baby hat.
They are looking for a baby hat.
They have some idea what their limit is as to how many pages of results they are willing to look at
AND
They know that to meet their LIMIT they are not going to find what they want on their first search.
Their first search is going to give some idea as to what is available and how many of them there are.
This is a clue as to how to modify their search to reduce the number of pages of the results so that the reduced size of the search better reflects the number of pages they are willing to look at AND those pages are also going to reflect better what they are looking for.
This is where many listings go wrong.
The Tags are use as some form of an incentive to come and BROWSE the shop to look for the products that are available.
People shopping the internet unless they know what shop they want to go to by in large already know what product they are looking for and what their budget is to spend with.
They are not browsers, they are product shoppers.
And they have a basic knowledge as to how to find it.
And their first search is rarely their last one.
The best way I can think of to be visible to those customers, the one with the money and are ready to buy is to describe your product as best as you can in basic generic terms, terms some one who is not familiar with material and technique but cosmetics and appearance and bank on the people who know what they want and how to find it actually using the same terms in reality that you use to describe it.
That is you paint a verbal picture with descriptive words, use tags to include synonyms, colloquialisms, spelling variations and such that I might use to describe what I am looking for.
And the successful shops do exactly that.
And remember one other thing.
I know how to read.
And a verbal definition of a product that represents verbal diarrhea and makes no sense when read I personally will ignore. Thus no matter how good a picture might be, I am not going to see it because I am not going to a product listing that assumes I have no clue how to read to check it out.

You can not write a business plan for a business that assumes random happenstance is going to be successful. A business plan must include supportable reality. Something that is predictable.

And actual listing? Is almost an art form in itself.
I consider myself a successful buyer. I have purchased many products for my own use from cottage industries here that are like yours. Things made by talented people.
My own shop is less than satisfactory and there are reasons for it. One of which was to collect data on what was or is successful and I have not yet set an objective as to analyzing it.
My prime product gets about 3 product hits a day.
I need to sit and analyze exactly how that takes place to improve my listing methods. So far I have not done that. I have had other objectives that were more important.
But it is cheap data acquisition, 20 cents a product for 3 months worth of acquired data. I am not complaining. But I now need to do something with it.
Who is looking and why and are they willing to spend the money. The people I am interested seeing looking at my products are those looking for them and have money in there pockets. And assuming that they represent .003% of those available using a random browsing approach, is not worth the effort.

Now as an example of what I am trying to say, go back to your example and read the description. It is fine and that is the point. This excerpt from it though;
"Hot pink made from soft acrylic yarn. "
is not included in any combination of Title and Tags which is the internet description. Except for the word PINK.
And if some one is looking for an item like this and wants to see it in Acrylic and thus asks for the word acrylic in their search, this item will never show up. As the word Acrylic is not in the Title or Tags.
But you are heavy in repetition of some wording and phrases which can work for or against you depending on the search used to find things with.
And remember. You can not predict the search used except for the probability of certain generic terms that might be commonly used by some one looking for a Crocheted Pink new born baby had using pink acrylic yarn.
Maybe worded like this;
http://www.etsy.com/search?q=Hat%2C%20newborn%20Pink%20acrylic%20&view_type=list&ship_to=ZZ

199 items on 5pages vs 160,000 items on about a 4000 pages or so of which only 250 of them can be seen.

[Former_Member]

Thank you!!!

[Former_Member]

Try to remember Clare, when choosing words or phrases to be used as a tag or to be included with in your title.
The objective is not to gain a position with in a search result based on a one search request but to be included on any search result that is created using words or phrases that mean the same thing as words used in the description.
For example a Baby hat might be looked for as a new born bonnet. The material and color of a listing might be important to some one looking. So if the description calls out the color and the material such as Pink Acrylic Yarn the some of the words used as tags should be Pink, Acrylic and Yarn. Some people prefer a crocheted item so if it is described as such, the word crochet should be included.
The word knitted should NOT be used simply because although the two techniques have similarities, they as you both know, the are not the same.
Sizes should some how be presented.
if It is for a 3 month old baby, the word three and the number 3 should be included some where. Why? Because different people will search using different terms that mean the same.
Repetitive use of phases with different word order take up space and add to total word count. Both are negative factors. Some times a phrase is best dealt with by using different words as single tags. That way when some one looking changes the word order of the search request, the words of their search phrase our found as individual words in the listing and combined by the search engine.

Example these tags from your listing;
Children
Baby Hat
baby hat
hat crochet
hat
crocheted hat
crochet hats
crochet baby hat
blue
newborn hat
beanie hat
blue
baby hat
baby hat
crochet
crochet
baby hats
Can all be replaced by;
Children, baby, newborn, Hats, beanies, crochet. Blue
and then add the word Acrylic and the numbers 3, 5 and 12.
Now in this case all of the above represents only 11 single word tags. And there are times when a number of descriptive single word tags are better choice than a collage of repetitive phrases. Especially when the single word tags better address the information in the description.
As the product is now presented to a wider audience of people looking for it.

In addition by comparing word usage to those used in the title, tags or words in the tags used in the title can be eliminated from the tags thus freeing up more space to constructively use them to better describe the product.
Must the be used that way?
No.
There is an advantage to a phrase when it is matched exactly.
There is also a disadvantage to an unmatched phrase which is pretty ugly.
And there is an advantage to repetition. There is also a disadvantage to repetition when 1. It does not cover the description and 2. it adds unnecessary word count to the total search field which is title and tags.
It is a balancing act between taking advantage of a phrase that has a high probability of being used to find with thus matched and a balancing act of repetitive word usage based on a predictable search. The other side is presenting your product to the widest possible segment of people looking AND most importantly expecting people looking to know what they want and have some semblance of knowledge of how to find AND most importantly, the working budget to pay for it NOW.
Some one who stumbles across this as product and going wow, this is neat. Is not a predictable situation. And can not be planned for.

[Former_Member]

https://www.etsy.com/listing/119262837/36-cedar-window-flower-box-planter

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