Some thoughts on non-compliance

[#1]

I read the forums about CPSIA very often and am starting to see an Idea pop up, and that's to either ignore the upcoming law, or willfully violate it. I just wanted to give you some information about doing this.
First the penalty for this are huge, and your insurance, or corporate veil from an LLC won't protect you, the fine will be personal again you, and if the CPSIA is anything like the IRS they will want to get that money, either confiscating personal and business property, or placing liens against you.
Second, most people think they wont' be going after “the little guy” I think the first people they will want to go after is the little guy. See, politicians aren't really in the business of protecting consumers, they are in the business of getting reelected by making consumers think they are protecting them. Right now, the economy terrible, and it's politician faults, so they will want to be able to say “Sure the economy sucks, and it might be my fault, But I recently cracked down on 1000 toy companies poisoning your children, vote for me!” They won't mention those 1000 companies were little old ladies making baby hats. And if they go after the big guys, they will have to go after the big guy's lawyers, which we simply can't afford as small businesses.
Thirdly, and most importantly, any sort of lying about compliance, forging certifications, or otherwise dodging the truth is consumer fraud, and really bad news.
-Chris

[Former_Member]

thanks for that info Chris!!!

[HandworkNaturals]

this proposed law makes no sense. seriously, think of all the fibers and fabric, etc. in this world that is dyed. we are all wearing, sitting on and sleeping in mucho dyed fabric. all of the washing and leaching into the ground water. if they are trying to rid the world of lead then it simply must not be produced to begin with. people are not intentionally dyeing their items with lead they are getting supplies from manufacturers.

does anyone really believe that all natural plant dyes are perfectly safe?

if the law were retro-active then it would eventually end up back in the government lap as failing to regulate from the beginning.

i realize what is before us but feel the need to express and clarify the truth....

[Former_Member]

I feel I am in compliance by verifying that my items are made from 100% lead/phthalate free materials. The CPSIA states that makers of stuffed animals have to determine for themselves if they need to test or not.

I am also working to change the law, including getting information on a class action law suit that wants to get a "restraining order" on the CPSIA so that we cannot be fined.

[Former_Member]

i read that, too... auntie... is that for sure true? that softie makers have the luxury of determining themselves?

i'd like them to further clarify that.

[TheWrapScrapPony]

I think you defintely have to have a "reasonable testing program" in place on Feb 10th. What is reasonable is up to you. Most are going wiht FRX testing of individual components or asking the suppliers for proof of lead testing. And that is reasonable in my eyes.

Now when August rolls around and the 3rd party testing part goes forth, that's when I'll think about closing up shop. Hopefully by then they'll have it all worked out and have something that makes sense. We'll see...

But I think you really should have something in place by Feb 10th to show you are complying with the LAW, however stupid it may be.

[NotMyTreeStore]

>ShadeJewelry says
>well if a government agency wants to get good numbers, like they want to close a lot of business or so on, are they going to go after the biggest offenders, for the smallest one? it's more cost effective to harass us.
-Chris

Is their goal to protect children, or to rack up big numbers of sellers who are non-compliant? Why do they want to close a lot of businesses? I have read quotes from Senator Waxman's office stating, "Don't worry, no one will be going out of business." I don't know how cost-effective it would be to fine and/or imprison small businesses who couldn't afford the fine. I'm not saying that they wouldn't put a lein on their property (although I don't see that happening, either). But they won't be making money from people paying fines if they're going after the little guy, either.

[Former_Member]

A woman I know is closing down her BM shop on Feb. 10th due to the CPSIA law. I talked to her the other day about the craziness of it all and pointed out that with only 30 people working to make sure everyone is in compliance with the law surely they couldn't police everyone. She told me she has a friend who works for our state and she was speaking with him about her dilemma and he told her if the State stands to make money by busting anyone, then they will go after you.

[NotMyTreeStore]

Most people who are staying open are doing so with the clear understanding that there may be risks involved. The likelihood of being snagged by the CPSC is high or low or somewhere in the middle, depending on what posts you read and whose expert you believe. I read several other posts from a seller whose neighbor IS an Assistant Attorney General in her state, and he apparently told her exactly the OPPOSITE - that there is no way states can afford the manpower to go after "violators" and not to worry. So it's a crap shoot. It's non-compliant to sell Mickey Mouse-themed handmade or to use licensed character fabrics in creations to be sold, too, but many people do that - not even as conscientious objectors, necessarily. People take chances in business all the time.

[Former_Member]

Compliance is going to be impossible after August 14th anyway, people have tried getting their items third party tested and the testing labs refused to do it. We're too small for it to be financially worth it to them.

[Former_Member]

bipsy
bipsy says:
But lillipop the big guys *are* going to be compliant.
------
And those that aren't are going to make themselves **look** compliant. As I understand it a lot of the reason the tainted toys got through in the first place was due to fraud on the part of the Chinese manufacturers (making special runs without lead just to send for testing, faking lead limit certificates, that sort of thing). (The rest is that only 2% of cargo containers coming through our ports are even checked by Customs.) That's not going to stop just because of this new law, because what they were doing was ALREADY breaking our existing laws. They've done it before, why stop now?

There will still be lead in toys after February and August, there just won't be any alternatives if we all shut our doors because we can't comply.

[Former_Member]

I'm still trying to digest all this. Am I to understand that if I buy my fabric from a company that likely has tested the fabrics they sell, and I assure customers that I don't add anything else but what I've purchased from said company, I can still stock with children's items? I make outerwear from brand new store-bought fleece. I also upcycle used wool sweaters - I understand that I will not be able to sell those items anymore, but what of the items I make from 100% new material bought from a large company store?

[FayeMaloneDesigns]

SunRayemomi

The large company store doesn't "have to test" because they aren't marketing the fabric to children, and they don't know what the consumer is going to do with it. So, If I buy 4 yards of cotton, and use 2 yards to make a dress for my grandchild/daughter I don't have to test that garment because it's not going into commerce. But it I use the other 2 yards and make an identical in every respect garment and sell it on etsy, I must test the entire garment. Dome how I put lead into the one but not into the other.

[Former_Member]

Except there is no slap on the wrists this time around Ruth. The fees are huge now and the new law enables them to cast a much wider net to prosecute individuals within the big companies when they are caught with lead toys.

[Former_Member]

Enforcement has been given over from CPSC to each state's Attorney General office. This is highly unusual for a federal law. While CPSC may not have the resources to "police" compliance, a state's AG may be able find those resources - state police, etc. That said, most states are facing enormous budget deficits now and this new burden would result in even greater financial hardship on the states to enforce. But you never know, there might always be one crusading AG in one of the state's who wants to make a name for himself "protecting" children. States have sent sales tax people around to craft shows - they could also send "compliance investigators" around as well.

[Former_Member]

I believe that they will go after the little guy, and make harsh examples out of those who do not comply. Just knowing your products are safe is obviously not enough, good luck challenging a law in court.

[NotMyTreeStore]

People have challenged unjust laws - real laws, final laws, laws that had been on the books for *years* - in court before and won, much to the benefit of this country. It's certainly not unheard of.

[Former_Member]

I will be discontinuing my children's items and shifting to a different product. I have a MBA and learned enough to know that a law is a law, however stupid it may seem. If you willfully violate it, you can be punished to the fullest extent. I wouldn't willingly sell crack to someone, and I will not sell an uncertified dress or tee shirt. No matter how I secure I feel in my heart about the presence or not of lead in my products, it's just not a risk I want to take.

By the way, to those of you who think it is ok to discuss not complying with the law, you need to realize that you are teetering on the line between conspiracy and discussing a potential reaction.

The legal definition of conspiracy is something like this: if 2 or more people discuss and agree to carry out an act that would be in violation of a law, and 1 of those involved takes steps towards that end, then everyone involved can be considered guilty of conspiracy.

I would advise you to discontinue your conversations in the public forums. You are risking willful neglect, fraud and conspiracy. Is it really worth it to you?

[Former_Member]

the CPSC may not be able to police Etsy for compliance but consumer groups will, other sellers will, customers will...you name it! These forums are public and read by many. There is a whistleblower section of the law that allows for people to come forward. That's who the CPSC relies on to police...that being the case i think it's a bad idea to state publicly in writing for all to see that you are willfully breaking the law.

I also agree that forging documentation is a bad idea..."reasonable testing program" is vague (but it's definitely not up to you to define) but you MUST show due diligence in complying. you cannot simply say "my know my products are safe so that's my reasonable program". That's not going to fly.

It may be the case that the CPSC is not going to bother with small beans like us but that's a risk...and you must know what your in for if it comes back to bite you..

[Former_Member]

off topic for a second - turtleparktots, your organic fabrics are gorgeous.

[NotMyTreeStore]

Surely selling a non-certified, all-cotton toddler dress is not the equivalent of selling crack now, is it? Has it gotten to that point?

[Former_Member]

jakboutique - love your guitar applique

It shouldn't be the equivilent to selling crack. But the fines make it such. The cost/benefit ratio of the potential fine vs the profit on a dress or shirt is ridiculous. I can't do it.

[Former_Member]

thanks bluecuddly! They're made by Harmony Art! The are absolutely wonderful to work with.nI'm sorry to hear that you're discontinuing your children's things..it makes me so sad!

[Former_Member]

It breaks my heart. I worked so hard this past year to get it going. I have a loyal following here in real life. I even had some things in a B&M store.

[Former_Member]

What if we could protest this law by doing what they ask. I posted this today and I am curios to see what everyone thinks.

http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6013737&page=1

[Former_Member]

Conspiracy???? Seriously. Once again, I have to take a break from all this pseudo-parenting. Can we all just act like adults here, please? We are ALL aware of the choices we are making and none of us need to be reprimanded for those choices.