Customer "Message Response Rate" incorrect

[#1]

Hello, I noticed that I have been incorrectly flagged as taking over 48 hours to respond to a customer's first message, even though that is not the case. I downloaded the .CSV and did confirm that it was a specific message/customer that it was an issue for.

They sent me a message for a custom order, within 24 hours of the first message I sent them back a custom order, yet because I didn't send them a text message along with the custom order I was flagged for not responding, even though I clearly responded with a custom order!

I've otherwise had a 100% rate at responding under 24 hours, this is a pretty upsetting blemish on what would otherwise be a perfect record, and would have granted me the third badge for fast responses which I'm now unfortunately missing. Any help with this would be appreciated.

[luxcrafter]

Agreed.  And when I take over Etsy that will be the first thing I fix.  Second will stop the nanny state of messages, so when something warrants using the word [structure that holds back water, often for hydro generation], one can type [structure that holds back water, often for hydro generation].

[CraftyCornishMaids]

the - create a custom  order opens a separate window on the right hand side, which is completely separate, and you then click to send them the listing

it is not a reply at all

it shows up under the message, so you know you've done it, and don't do it again.

You have to REPLY, where it says - type your reply, - you didn't, so you were dinged

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

@CraftyCornishMaids  By definition, if someone sends something, and I send something back, that is considered a reply. Please look up the definition of the word "Reply".

I'm not sure why you are defending this horrible practice against sellers. If they don't want custom orders which are apart of the same UI to count as messages, they need to have it documented, and explicitly state in documentation that they do not count. They made the design decision to include them in the UI, and made them show up as a reply.

Like I totally understand what is intended, and obviously will be sending text messages going forward. My frustration here is because it's a technicality that isn't documented and honestly should not exist. It only harms new sellers who are unaware and honestly feels like a "Gotcha!".

[CraftyCornishMaids]

you didn't send something back,

you created a new listing and sent that

There is a difference between creating a new new listing and sending it

and replying to an existing message

It's not unusual, create, and reply, are normally separate functions 

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

@CraftyCornishMaids  This is factually incorrect. It's apart of the messaging interface, and even shows up in the chat window as a reply.

See image: https://imgur.com/8C6Kvtm

Again I'm fine if Etsy wants sellers to send a message alongside the offer, but it needs to be documented, especially when the websites design implies that it counts as a reply.

[CraftyCornishMaids]

you have to click

CREATE custom order

Then a brand new, different window opens, which is not a message window, it is a listing template

You complete the listing template 

Then you have to click

SEND private listing

None of that is REPLYing to a message, it is creating a listing and sending it.

It then goes back to the message, where you have the option to

Type your REPLY

If you haven't typed a reply, then you haven't replied

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

@CraftyCornishMaids 

So you're telling me... In response to a message, you are SENDING a custom order, which also appears in the message history..

So sending something in response to a message isn't a reply? Again please double check what the definition of reply is.

Not only that, but I don't accept this "It's a different window" argument. You click a button directly beside the chat, it brings up this little side message with chat still visible, which when you click "Send Private Listing" pops up as a bubble in the chat window.

See image: https://imgur.com/ekdHbzr

I don't blame you for being complacent in this flaw, but understand, no matter how you phrase it this is a clear flaw in the platform that Etsy needs to resolve.

[CraftyCornishMaids]

etsy puts a date/time, on the customers message, and on ongoing replies, they are separated out, with the date time

There is only a message there from a customer, followed by a second one from the customer - both dated

there is an annotation on the second customers message, saying you shared a custom listing with them.
This is an annotation put on their message by etsy, saying you shared a private listing, it is not a reply from you.

If you had replied, there would be a separate time/date stamp, with your reply underneath

Not sure why you are finding this so difficult to understand

you really did not type in a reply

It is not a flaw, it is working correctly

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

It's ok to disagree with me, seriously don't stress about it.

But genuinely your argument is seriously flawed, from a user-experience perspective it is implied that a custom listing should count as a reply. A customer sends something, I performed an action, and a message was sent to them in response (in this case a custom order)

In fact, you type in alot of information when sending a custom order! If I actually ignored the message for 48 hours like Etsy implies, the customer would not have purchased the order before 48 hours. Instead they got my reply, they purchased, I shipped it out, and they were very happy with their order. At the end of the day, I got the sale, Etsy got their fees and the customer was happy. Why should I be punished?

But really, I'm not trying to convince you, individually, that I am right. You are providing a counter argument against me and I am simply defending my point.

[CraftyCornishMaids]

Etsy says you did not reply, you didn't

there is no reply from you with a time/date stamp

There is just the annotation by etsy, on the last message , and that was the customers message

You didn't reply, you were dinged correctly

No counter argument, just facts, clear as day, to be seen in your screenshot

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reply

I quite literally can not explain this any better to you. A customer sent something, I sent something back, that is by definition a reply.

Technicalities of message vs custom order aside there is no way you can argue that I did not reply to the customer, as that is factually incorrect.

[bradgoodell]

@Crowsnest3DPrinting 

@CraftyCornishMaids is correct.  You have to go by Etsy's definition of a reply, not your own.  Etsy doesn't see your action as a reply.  If a buyer contacts you and requests a cancellation, and you reply through the cancellation, Etsy does not see that as a reply either.

Etsy's sandbox, Etsy's rules.

Arguing with everyone who is trying to explain to you how Etsy works doesn't change how Etsy works.  

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

@bradgoodell

My definition? Words have meaning, and Etsy does not follow the traditional meaning of the word, that is not my fault as a user of the platform.

The whole issue is Etsy does NOT define it as different. Nowhere does it mention "Replying with a custom order does not count towards message response time". It's current ambiguous. How can you say that is how Etsy defines it if they don't actually define it?

As far as I'm concerned, as fellow sellers, the definition/conclusion you are coming to is NOT officially Etsy's definition until it is documented or expressed to the user in an official manner. This is simply your opinion. If Etsy shares this opinion then they need to document it instead of punishing users for ambiguous policies.

[bradgoodell]

@Crowsnest3DPrinting 

You really enjoy tilting at windmills, don't you?  

Go forth with your battle!

Best of luck. 

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

I'm more than happy to hold companies accountable for shady practices. Policies exist for a reason, and when they don't uphold their end of the written policy, I have every right to complain about it.

Cheers! No hard feelings, have a good one

[FallenAngelBrass]

---

@Crowsnest3DPrinting  wrote:

I'm more than happy to hold companies accountable for shady practices.

---

Except that you're not holding Etsy accountable.  Etsy isn't aware of your complaints and Etsy isn't responding to you. You're just arguing with fellow sellers who are giving you their considerable experience and knowledge - for free and on their own time.  

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

Who's to say this is my only point of communication? This is only one aspect. I do have ongoing conversations with Etsy and will continue pressing the issue in private, alongside this public forum.

Also I'm simply defending my argument, no one has to reply here, yet they do. Not a single person has brought forth a valid counter argument, since there is none. Words have definitions and Etsy has not followed their own written policies as defined it is as simple as that.

I honestly find it concerning how many sellers are complacent with these shady practices, instead of people trying to argue against me they should be in support for a more honest platform so we can all benefit.

[CraftyCornishMaids]

Etsy says you have to 

REPLY

to each new message thread

you can double check if you have

REPLIED,

because the date/time is above your 

REPLY

....

you have given a screenshot, that clearly shows there is

NO REPLY

from you

all there is, is etsys annotation on the sellers message, that you shared a listing

nowhere, is there anything, that shows you

REPLIED

If you had, your words of your reply, time/date stamped, would be there for everyone to see

and they are not

..................

This is the sort of reply that I give , after I have shared the listing

.... thank you for your custom request, I have just shared the listing with you, can you check it's what you were expecting, and if so, I look forwards to your order, 

If it isn't what you were expecting, or would like something changed or clarified, please let me know, so I can make sure I am making exactly what you would like.

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

Have you ever read the seller agreement? It actually doesn't say you have to REPLY so please stop repeating yourself, and educate yourself on the policy here: https://www.etsy.com/ca/legal/sellers/?ref=list#selling

Section 1.d.2 for Seller Standards:

[...]

Respond to Messages in a timely manner.

[...]

I have very clearly responded to the message, I responded with a custom order. Forgiving the fact this denied me my star seller rank, this has inexcusably hurt me on my Standard Service Level which is a negative impact towards my store.

[BootifulLabels]

Listen to us or don't listen to us, it isn't going to change anything.  Neither is constantly claiming Etsy's rules are unfair and you have been hard done by (apologise if that term is an Aussie thing that no-one else understands, it means victimised).  Etsy spells out the rules quite clearly on the Star Seller pages, if you take the time to actually read them.  They won't change the system, it is working well for them as it is.  Star Seller is an aspirational program, it's not a requirement that you have the badge and there aren't any penalties if you don't.  It is something to strive for if you place value in it.  Personally I don't, despite the fact that I meet the majority of criteria every month and generally only fall short on the minimum sales value (tell me what that has to do with customer service skills).  It hasn't changed anything for me in the few months I have managed to fluke the requirements.  The amount of energy you are spending on this is ridiculous.  You can rant all you like but sooner or later you will need to listen and absorb what we are saying.  

I wish you luck getting Etsy to change this program, if you really feel as strongly about it as you say, the only thing you can do is follow through and take your business elsewhere.  I hope you don't, I am confident that losing your badge will not hurt your sales.

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

Read the policy here:

https://www.etsy.com/ca/legal/sellers/?ref=list#selling

This isn't just about star seller - that I'll eventually work my way up to, even if I should have qualified this month. More importantly this issue directly impacts me on the Standard Service Level, which is required of all sellers, which has been unjustly knocked down almost 15% which is a SIGNIFICANT IMPACT to my store.

The only verbiage in the policy regarding this is "Respond to Messages in a timely manner.", absolutely nowhere does it say this technicality that sending a custom order via the messages section does not count.

I clearly fulfilled my end of the agreement by responding to the message, it is Etsy who failed on their end, so why should I be penalized?

[CraftyCornishMaids]

That is standard info, with click throughs, on what you actually have to do

If you click through, it says....

How to reply to a message

To reply to a message on Etsy.com or the Etsy Seller app:

1. From Messages, select a message thread with a buyer.
2. Type your response in the text box.
3. Select Send or tap the Send icon.

.......

you didn't type your response in the text box, and select or tap "send"

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

As mentioned in my other comment, no where does the policy say I have to REPLY. It says I have to RESPOND which I clearly did.

If this technicality was so important they should have included it in the legal seller agreement, which they did not. Therefor I should not be penalized for it.

Again, words have meaning, and the words in the policy state that I was not in the wrong here.

[Crowsnest3DPrinting]

AND to add to this, here's a copy/paste of the link click through, word for word:

Message response rate

Buyers use Etsy Messages to communicate with sellers about potential or existing orders, and responding in a timely manner can help create a reliable shopping experience. 

You need to respond to 80% of first messages in a thread within the first 48 hours to meet the message response rate standard. 

The following aren’t factored into your Message response rate stat:

• Ongoing conversations after the first message in a new thread
• Messages you report as spam
• Messages from Etsy that appear in your “From Etsy” folder 
• Messages outside the current review period 

Keep in mind auto-replies count as a first message. Also, marking the first message in a new thread as unread won’t count a message as new again.

-

Do you see any mention of REPLY, SEND, etc? No, I see RESPOND. They even have a section showing what DOESN'T COUNT and it is not listed there.

[CraftyCornishMaids]

you didn't respond to the message

and neither did you reply to the message

you just created a listing and shared it, from a completely different pop-up screen

what is so difficult that you don't understand these basics?