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PartyBeeInvitations
Registered Member

What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I wanted to address the PayPal Working Capital loan.  I really value that PayPal offers a loan based on your PayPal income alone. I also love that my payments are passive and automatic.  Now, with this new system, I will have to manually make payments, which is fine but the hopes of reapplying for the loan if needed will be very much different now since my PayPal income will drastically change.  

Just asking if this feature that PayPal offers was taken into consideration, becasue it is something that works in tandem WITHOUT the integrated payment system.  I am hoping that you listen to our concerns and possibly reconsider not making the veteran sellers who were grandfathered in prior change their payment platform. 

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TheDreamyDaisy
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I am also very concerned about this.  I actually have a current PayPal working capital loan that I am currently making payments on.  Part of the terms of the loan is that I will NOT divert any funds coming into PayPal anywhere else.  Now I have no choice.  I do expect my loan should be pretty much paid off by 5/15, but as the OP says,  I will never qualify for another one, because the loans offered are based on money coming into the PayPal account.

This is definitely a reason to divert most of my sales to my website which has both a PayPal and a Shopify payment option.

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SunsetSeams
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Good point.  A few years ago was my most productive income stream - I loved seeing the money go into my Paypal account.  Then when Etsy forced us to accept integrated Etsy payments my Paypal income dropped like a stone - to the effect that Paypal wrote to me, in concern, that my income had dropped!

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LazyCatBeads
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Has anyone reached out to PayPal to see what they say about this? Interested.......

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PartyBeeInvitations
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I have not, but maybe I should.  My question is, if you were to manually tansfer money to PayPal, would that be taken into consideration as "income" for reapplying in the future?   So many questions!!

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UnconventionalX
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I did today to ask what the situation is and how I can change it!

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craftschmooze
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I so close to paying off my pay pal working capital, but doubt I will get approved for another one! This is so bad! I rely on that money for machine maintenance to spread the 3k cost across the year!

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JDCreativeHands
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I doubt that Etsy considered this when making the decision.  The decision to not allow standalone PayPal any longer for EP eligible countries does not meant that buyers cannot use PayPal.  

If you transfer money, ask PayPal if that would be considered income to cover your loan.  That would be a question for PayPal to answer.  

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LaurelDassoLeathers
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Manual payments don't count as income for Working Capital loans.  I've asked in the past, having mad a large final payment on a previous WC loan.  Only the percentage of your actual PayPal sales counts.

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PartyBeeInvitations
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I just called PayPal Working Capital, they will not consider any other source of funds as income for applying for a WC Loan unless it comes through as a payment.  Transfering money will not count. You can make manual payments but they said that you would most likley have to apply for a traditional loan through PayPal.   He said, this sounds a lot like what happened when Ebay integrated and they lost a bunch of customers because of it.  What a blow.....

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Marmalady
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

How you use your Paypal account -- what you buy with it, whether you have loans from PP -- is nothing to do with Paypal so they have no reason or responsibility to take such things into consideration.

Its like asking Brand X soap-powder to take into consideration how you use Brand Y before making changes

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PartyBeeInvitations
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Right, I do understand that it is a seperate entity but when so many Etsy sellers are effected by this in regards to thier PayPal Working Capital loan, don't you think it's something to voice concern for?   This is going to cause sellers to jump ship to a platform that allows stand alone PayPal not just because people are fed up with the changes, but because they cannot afford to not have the option to utelize the Working Capital Loan.   They may be two different platforms but this specific situation is a lot more integrated than you think. 

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LazyCatBeads
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I think the OP was concerned about how PayPal would handle the change of income when related to the "PayPal Working Capital Loan". Sounds like the answer is they won't consider a manual transfer of funds to be considered as income against the loan. Unless I read it incorrectly.

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gorimbaud
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I think it would be good for sellers with this issue to contact Etsy and let them know how harmful and inconvenient this forced change is. I do not have such loan, but losing standalone Paypal is very inconvenient to me in other ways. I sent Etsy support an email voicing that. 

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Donobob
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Really.

Etsy does not care about your ability to borrow money from Paypal or anywhere else. And they should not. It may be inconvenient to some who use Paypal loans, but not in Etsys interest.

Etsy will make more money with all payments in house and it makes good business sense to do just that. If you never thought of this, then you have not really thought about it at all - the move was obvious - only the timing was really unknown.

Paypal is currently changing its policies - they no longer give a refund on fees paid when a refund is given to a buyer. Once that policy kicks in live, it is not really the best place to have your money for purchases sent to anyway. Paypal has always refunded fees on a return less the 30-35¢, but going forward they have stated there will be No fees returned.

Etsy will probably dump Paypal altogether at some point or restrict its use in the integrated payment system to buyers in counties that cannot use EP. First step is grab all the traffic by eliminating stand alone PP and then cut the bleeding of fees on the Integrated PP sales.

Ebay will cut Paypal out and Etsy will as well. This bodes very baddly for Paypal.

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EDennis
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Ebay has announced that they will be integrating PayPal into the new Ebay payments system. Since both Etsy and Ebay use Adyen, I wonder if this is something that's going on with Adyen.

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IndependentReign
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Wow, this is not good news for me either.   I have relied on my long standing history of payments processed through PayPal to get multiple Working Capital loans which were vastly important to help fund my growth as well as for purchasing equipment and bulk supplies to support my business.  I have traveled with PayPal reps to Washington DC several years ago when they worked with legislators in discussing PayPal Working Capital and  how it benefits Small Businesses.  I have a great relationship with PayPal and admire their support for Small Businesses.  In all the years I have had an account with them, I have rarely ever had an issue with any funds, withdrawls, deposits or transfers.  As a business customer, you get instant availability to phone support when needed.   In all the years I had only 1 instance of funds that went missing from my account (on Christmas Eve no less) and I was able to instantly contact PayPay via phone.  They reviewed the withdrawl then and there and instantly put the funds right back into my account.   They just make things easy and I never worry about anything with PayPal funds.  I just don't have the same trust with my Payment Account on Etsy in regards to any disputes, disparities or deposit delays (based on the recent issues and lack of immediate team response, action and resolution.)     With all the Etsy announcements and changes over the years, I have not really had much of a reaction good or bad.  But this one really has me bothered.   :(

I will likely be at the PayPal offices in New York for a Small Business webinar at the end of this month.  No doubt that this will be a topic of discussion.  

Just adding my 2 cents here and interested to hear what others have to contribute either pro or con.

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thewrappedpixie
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

@IndependentReign, You sound like someone that could know a few answers for us very soon. I was going to contact PayPal tomorrow, once the change is in effect, so I can see if there are any trouble shooting options to make this work. I was an original Capital Loan recipient many years ago and have been taking them annually to help support my growth as a seller here on Etsy. My shop has exploded over the past 3 years, partly becuase of the boost from the Paypal Capital Loans. This payment change Etsy is forcing is a huge blow to that forward progress for many of us. Please let me know, as well as any other interested party here, if PayPal might be willing to work with the sellers to figure a way to export sales that are PayPal direct sales, so we can show the sales history and submit payments off that. I know that there is a way to adapt and overcome this situation. Unless, of course, Etsy has a change of heart and allows those with stand alone PayPal to remain...

 

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IndependentReign
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

I'd like to further add that I have a strong dislike for the somewhat aggressive and threatening wording used in the Policy Update.  I kindly suggest that Etsy take a softer approach and have a better understanding and a "know your audience" attitude when presenting an announcement.  We, as Sellers, are in this together with you.   While I suppose its just semantics, the "way" you say something, especially as a professional business, is important and can vastly change the reaction you receive (Customer Service 101).

 

Etsy quote:

"If you don’t enroll in Etsy Payments by May 15, 2019, your selling privileges will be suspended until you enroll."

Perhaps that sentence would be better written as:  Unfortunately, due to our new policy all Sellers will need to enroll in Etsy Payments by May 15th, 2019 to continue processing sales and payments.  We will be unable to process any payments for Sellers not enrolled by that date and may suspend your selling privileges.

 

Etsy quote:

"If you don’t disable your standalone PayPal account and integrate your PayPal sales through Etsy Payments by May 15, 2019, we’ll automatically make this change for you."

Perhaps better written as:  All accounts that currently use Etsy Payments will be automatically converted to include integrated PayPal through Etsy Payments on May 15th, 2019.    

And how about a little closing line:   "We appreciate our Sellers as a valuable part of the Etsy Community and look forward to continuing to support you through this change."

Sorry....just bothers me to have something sent to me with a "comply or else" attitude about it....

Ok, I vented....  Bye.

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Donobob
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Etsy never was good at communication, the company could use a university course in Business Communication. lol

But now you ask them to lie - "We appreciate our Sellers as a valuable part of the Etsy Community..." I don't believe they actually appreciate sellers, theycertainly don't seem to care much one way or the other, unless it effects their bottom line.

Etsys attitude has been like this for at least 6 years that I have been here, maybe more.

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carolinagirlz2
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Gorgeous shop, Independant Reign -

I have a shirt that reads "If you can't win the argument, correct their language."

You have done just that. Well said.

 

 

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BootifulLabels
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

While I agree with you that Etsy's communications tend to be overly business like, to the point of severity in some cases, I suspect one reason for that is to emphasise the nature of the relationship. They say familiarity breeds contempt, and some sellers (perhaps quite naturally, if misguidedly) believe longevity on the site should mean their individual specific needs should be Etsy's priority and that they should have a say in Etsy's decisions. As a result, the warm and fuzzy feelings they developed in the early days when the Etsy "community" was being built have influenced their idea of what the relationship between Etsy and its sellers (customers) should be.  The thing is Etsy may have been born to fill a  gap in online selling opportunities for a specific group of sellers in crafting and vintage, but it was also started as a business, and like all businesses it needs to look after its own bottom line first and foremost or it will not be around to continue filling that gap.  You only have to look at some of the language used in forum threads on this subject and in fact on every thread about Etsy changes, "money grab", "Etsy greed", "controlling" etc.  As business owners we sometimes have to raise prices, or change our product range , processes or policies to increase revenue.  We don't usually consult our customers when we make these decisions.  I doubt we would be happy if some of our customers accused us of greed because we raise prices or add a charge for something we may have offered at no cost in the past.  While we know some will not be happy about change, we make our business decisions based on what we feel we need to do for the overall good of the business.  Etsy is no different, they cannot possibly consider every seller's individual needs and wants, but the warm and fuzzy factor causes any changes they make to be evaluated by some with emotional instead of practical or analytical viewpoints.  It is hardly surprising that Etsy tries to remove the emotion from their communications to better define the business relationship.  Unfortunately they don't do it well, but written communication can be difficult when it comes to conveying tone and attitude.☺

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FINDINGMORE
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Independentreign - Well said ! Thank you, for your time. Perhaps Etsy should hire you as their Communication Director. 

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SusySewandSew
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

While your version reads well and gives me the warm fuzzies the point does not come across as well and is a bit lost in all the words.  Etsy needs to keep it clear and concise so there are no misunderstandings.

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FlytrapLife
Registered Member

Re: What About The PayPal Working Capital Loan?

Posts about these loans are best directed to PayPal. I agree Etsy has no interest in or responsibility for how sellers fund their businesses. 

@IndependentReign Using "active voice" would explain why Etsy communication may seem less friendly to some. See below. Plus, if Etsy is soft and fuzzy about it, sellers may absorb the importance of this shift.

"Using active voice in your writing means that the subject of the sentence comes first and performs the action that the rest of the sentence describes. This is the most straightforward way to present your ideas, because it creates a clear image in the reader's mind of who is doing what."

Source: Active Voice Adds Impact to Your Writing

For anyone with working capital loans from PP, here's a list of alternative ways to get funding. Plus, you can always use credit cards.

https://fitsmallbusiness.com/paypal-working-capital-and-alternatives/

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