One more thing to check for!!! I haven't seen anything about this one so I wanted to make people aware of another potential overcharge that sellers may be facing in the Etsy Payment Account. 

Orders where customers paid Sales Tax AND paid through Standalone PayPal have been overcharged in my Payment Account. Going back through my orders, this was happening BEFORE the new Etsy Payments migration this fall, as I have an order that was overcharged a couple months before I was migrated over in November. This is likely, only affecting international sellers as it seems to be a currency conversion error - but I'm not 100% sure of that.

In Etsy the Customer Order will show the sales tax amount in CAD  (eg: One order I had was $6.05 CAD Sales Tax)

In PayPal the receipt will show the same amount in CAD (eg: $6.05)

Back in Etsy in the Payment Account Etsy has deducted more in CAD. (eg: $6.21 deducted).

***This overcharge is ONLY happening on orders where the customer paid via our Standalone PayPal. It is not happening on orders where the customer paid through Etsy Payments. It's kind of a hard one to catch if you don't have many PayPal sales that also have sales tax. And considering these PayPal Sales Tax amounts are actually called out in the Payment Account as a Sales Tax Deduction, it doesn't cause problems with the account balancing like the Sales Tax that mysteriously disapears on Etsy Payments Orders. 

 

For an individual seller, this may not be a significant amount to quibble over (maybe only a few pennies), but over the whole Inernational Etsy Community, it will add up to be quite a significant amount. 

IllunisMoon
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

I'm sooo baffled.. So now ANOTHER fee discrepansy in addition to the flawed 5% fee!

Guys, it's beginning to look like Etsy have set up their systems in the purpose to skim small quite undetectable amounts of money from us...I can't think of any other reason for this ongoing disaster...it's just incredible. They are stealing and getting away with it! I literally don't know wether to laugh or cry!!!

And someone mentioned Etsy's TOU rules forbids class action lawsuits... *heading back to my shop to look it up right now*

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Donobob
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@IllunisMoon

As Etsy has broken the TOU on financial issues in their own favour for over 5 months, and known about it, I would suggest that possibly they may not be able to hold you (us) to the TOU in regards to a class action suit. It may also be illegal in some countries to wave class action rights completely as it states in the TOU. That is something a lawyer would need to determine for you.

A very large problem with these issues is that most sellers being overcharged continuously for very small amounts, that it does not make economic sense to sue, particularily individually. It will require someone with means and determination. The fact that any suit would need to cross borders is another hurdle to get past.

Of course Etsy is aware of the problem with their accounting, and also aware of the problem any of us would have to pursue them. So, IMO, Etsy has decided to ignore the overcharge issue to some extent. That is a glaring sign of (for me) that they don't really care. Etsys attitude form out here looks very bad, at best, to criminal at worst. An honest company would work to solve these problems, where Etsy seems not to have.

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BoudoirPrive
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@FfigysDesigns

Many thanks for your help.  After delving a little deeper, I did find the information, but was initially put off from looking any further due to Etsy's following note:-  "Activity is shown in your payment account currency as of October 2018. Graphs are unavailable for activity before then."  As all I could see were dashes for months prior to October 2018, I assumed that the history had been deleted.  I can now try to work out what all the debits to Etsy from my Paypal account are in relation to.

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ArtesanJewelry
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

Just saw the same problem from my Standalone PayPal. Sales tax was deducted there and I have the same amount deducted from my Etsy payment account. gRrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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BootifulLabels
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

What you are seeing in your standalone Paypal account is NOT Paypal deducting the tax, but simply the buyer paying the tax as part of the payment.  Paypal does not deduct that tax, as they are not a marketplace as designated by these new tax laws.  They simply process the payment from the buyer and the tax goes into your Paypal account with the rest of the payment.  It is Etsy that is required to collect this tax.  With Etsy Payments they can do this because they receive the funds through their processor, but they cannot access the funds when the payment goes through your Paypal account, so you receive the tax in your Paypal account, and then Etsy charges you for it in your Etsy account so that they can send it on to the appropriate tax office.  The only deduction on your Paypal account will be the processing charge, which will be slightly higher because the tax increases the actual value of the payment they are processing.  As an example, on a $20 payment, with 6% tax added (which appears to be about the average), you will pay an additional 7c in processing fees (3% of 6% of $20).

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WireExpressions
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@ArtesanJewelry What @BootifulLabels says is correct. Etsy pays the sales tax on our behalf, however Etsy cannot reach into your PayPal account to take the Sales Tax, so they debit it from your Payment Account instead. In essence we the owe Etsy the sales tax amount. If you are a non-us seller and you are seeing the sales tax amount EXACTLY as it is in PayPal and on the Etsy Order, then you're fine. But keep an eye on it. 

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ArtesanJewelry
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@BootifulLabels 

Yes Maam - Thank you. You are correct. I read it wrong. That 3% of 6% turns into 1.40 for my average order though :-/. Every little bit is important with all the increases, overcharges (which I have seen 0 credit for), and pushes for "free" shipping. Losing any more isn't an option.

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ElvenstarDesign
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

I'm in the UK  and have standalone PayPal so I checked too but they are the same, Washington tax of £5.05  so I checked an Australia GST tax too which was £3.60

They are the same in my standalone PayPal as my etsy, so no problem  here, double check figures and remember PayPal and etsy are not both taking them either. 

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WireExpressions
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@ElvenstarDesign THere are three places were this sales tax amount shows up

     1. On the Etsy order itself 

     2. In your Standalone PayPal

     3. Deducted from your Etsy Payment Account

Check your Etsy Payment account deductions for that Washington Tax...Is it £5.05 in all three of the above places?

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ElvenstarDesign
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

Yes, I checked all 3 places (always the payment account before the invoice but also the order itself, it is the same, for examples I checked a Washington state order and then I checked an Australia  GST tax order, both had checked out in standalone PayPal.

I did only check the most recent 2 so perhaps there could be errors in other order, I will definitely check through this but the last 2 Washington  tax and Australia  tax are correct.

 

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CraftyCornishMaids
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@ElvenstarDesign 

Mine are correct on the etsy order, it is collected correctly on order and packing slip, and it is correct on paypal,

What is wrong, is the charge back

for my australian one

tax - sales tax , is the charge, and it's £2.44, rather than the £2.36 that went to paypal, and was on the order/packing slip

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CindyLouDoesStats
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

Note that sellers in the EU may not see this issue on EU orders. You want to be checking orders outside of your jurisdiction where Etsy collects tax for us. For EU shops, that will be Australia and some US states. 

So far I have only seen this happening to people selling in their own currency instead of in USD. 

Also note that the error occurs solely in your payment account. The tax amount showing in PayPal should be correct, as should the amount on your orders page. The error is in your payment account only, when they deduct that amount of tax to remit. That is the only line you will see a different amount.

Since Etsy has promised us that we don't pay exchange rate fees on our Etsy bills when we sell in our own currency, this extra amount they are taking can't be a legitimate exchange fee. 

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ElvenstarDesign
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

I have checked a Washington state order and an Australia order ( in the payment account deductions and the amount on the invoice and the amount in standalone paypal) I am UK based and list in my own currency.

These were the most recent 2 in the past week so I will investigate further tomorrow on older orders and report back with my findings. I will also check on other states that are now remitting tax in my orders.

 

Interesting to see how many countries this is happening in.

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CraftyCornishMaids
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

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cindylouwho2
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@CraftyCornishMaids  thanks! I can see where I might have skipped that if I were skimming, (wrongly) assuming that it was just another issue with VAT at a time when there were a lot of issues with VAT. Or I may have just missed it entirely - that was a bad time of year! 

So, have I been nominated to start the next Bugs thread? @WireExpressions   I will have to wait til I switch to the affected shop. 

 

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WireExpressions
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@cindylouwho2 sure if you'd like to start a bug thread! I've had/got a busy day today with the kids!

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cindylouwho2
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

so, not going to happen today, & who knows what we willl be facing after the Investors Day announcements tomorrow morning, but I will try for tomorrow. (I'm asking a few people  from different countries for more examples so we have it covered. If anyone knows someone in a Paypal-only country who sells a fair amount, ask them to check how this is being calculated for them, please)

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Beadcomber
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

I've noticed this too since I have a Standalone Paypal account. It can't be currency conversion, or shouldn't be, considering that ...if you sell in US currency as a Canadian Seller like myself, and then change your shop currency to your own...Etsy will actually give you TWO WEEKS to change it back at the SAME currency exchange rate.

In all this time...back in December when they told me they owe my fifty some cents...I know it's a heck of a lot more than that. And again...if anyone opens a ticket in support, when you get a canned reply with 'look at these help files'...look at the bottom and reply to that very same email to actually get it to someone at the other end.

I think this should be opened in bugs...

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Beadcomber
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@WireExpressions 

I just posted this elsewhere but will copy it here too...

I sell in US currency. I had a sale with stand alone Paypal. The tax was US$3.18. Etsy deducted CDN$4.21 which would make the exchange rate 1.323899. Interestingly, and I checked all statements, Etsy does not provide a currency exchange rate for the $4.21 they charged me and that fee is only found on the monthly statement. 

I did have other sales that same day through Etsy payments for which they provided exchange rates of 1.296199, 1.299198, and 1.29058 twice. So Etsy overcharges on the Currency exchange of the Tax, i.e. charges 2.5% currency conversion on top of the rates? Seems just plain wrong. I think it IS wrong to charge a conversion fee on the tax that Etsy collects.

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WireExpressions
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

@Beadcomber  Hmm That's an interesting one! To me yours sounds like it's complicated by the fact that you sell in USD from Canada. Is your PayPal set up to accept payments in multiple currencies or just USD? When my PayPal was set-up to accept payments in USD as well as CAD the orders that came in at USD always had wonky exchanges issues between here and the site I was acepting the order from (It wasn't Etsy). I was losing money on the exchange rate because it was going through the currency exchange process twice. CAD to USD then USD back to CAD. The wonky exchange rates were also being reflected through the other sales site. I have changed the currency settings in my PayPal Account to only accept orders in CAD to match the currency I sell in so it stays consistent with less issues. Not sure if a similar thing is happening with yours. 

 

Also, I believe I read somewhere this week that etsy charges an extra 2.5% on the currency exchange when it it done through another channel other than Etsy Payments. (At the moment, I do not have time to go digging to verify the source of that). But this would explain why your paypal Sales tax is was seeing a higher exchange rate that day than your other orders. 

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CraftyCornishMaids
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

Etsy charges 2.5% on the total, and uses paypals echange rate, which is retail rate, not as favourable as bank rates,

They do state this, so it is up to you to decide what currency to list in, knowing Etsy charges this

Because of this, I list in £, not $

 

more info

https://help.etsy.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360000344668-Currency-Conversion-Fees
and
https://help.etsy.com/hc/en-gb/articles/115015520448-Conversion-Rates-on-Etsy

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IllunisMoon
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

I posted in the illegal overcharge thread as well:

"So a new development has happened. I got a reply yesterday from Etsy. It's in all of out interest to share this so: it states...

*From between Oct 1, 2018 - Dec 27, 2018 they owe me a whopping 32.49 SEK (I don't know if this is correct, I find it impossible to see with the new mystery finances system). Nothing about what they owe me for 2019 as the overcharging is still ongoing.

*The credits will cover all transaction fee overages since the release of the redesigned Payment account. Does this mean they don't acknowledge any overcharges before Oct 1 or is this just in my case?

*Etsy is reviewing the process for calculating the transaction fee going forward. So unclear wether they are going to fix the existing calculation or change the TOU's.

*I'm promised updates when they have more information, but at this time, they are unable to provide a specific date for the fix or the credit. So no commitments to any time soon.

AND they credited my payment account with a whopping 15 SEK for the trouble! Now I'm relatively thickskinned, and there might be cultural differences that I'm not reading...but to me this feels meaningless and just slightly offensive. Or is granting the sum of €1,5 some kind of legal manouver? See what this have done to me Etsy, you have made me stop trusting you completely.

Well, at least I got a reply, and a confirmation of some sort. Good to know there is actually someone there..."

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Donobob
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

Here are the 3 major threads covering OverCharging by Etsy of foriegn sellers:

Pricing-and-Finance/Transaction-fee-is-NOT-5-of-the-item-total-and-shipping-costs

Etsy-s-illegal-skimming-of-millions-of-sellers

Another-Overcharge-Sales-Tax-Paid-Thru-PayPal-Overcharged

And a new report of sales tax Overcharged

Overcharge-on-sales-tax

To date I cannot tell if the Overcharge Sales Tax when paid via Standalone Paypal applies to everyone, but I suspect it does.

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Donobob
Community Member

Re: Another Overcharge - Sales Tax Paid Thru PayPal Overcharged In Etsy Payments

Another big thread on these issues (I missed it the first pass)

 
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