Pistol Grips Policy Clarification Request

[GoodsEternal]

I recently received an email stating some of our listings may be in violation of Etsy policies after May 25th.

We sell decorative pistol grips for 1911 pistols.  We are a small shop making a high quality product in the U.S.A.  

We put a great deal of care into making these from design, material selection, machining all the way through to hand finishing.

We feel we are the epitome of what Etsy sellers were supposed to be.

Our products is decorative in nature and happens to mount on a pistol which is a part of American history.  There is a large demand for these with over 4000 current listings.

The type of pistol our grips mount to is not and will not be a part of any future assault weapons ban as the pistol itself has a 7 round capacity.

I hope Etsy takes care in rolling out their new policy and puts a little bit of research into it as they are affecting some successful American small businesses who have worked hard to get where they are at.

From a business perspective, firearm sales are increasing year over year and doing so in traditionally liberal areas as well.  Creating a policy which will restrict Etsy sellers from a market that continues to expand should be given some real though prior to rolling out.

Best regards,

Aett Armorers Team

[PlatypusDream]

Etsy recently updated its weapon policy and has banned gun parts.

When Etsy makes rules, they are non negotiable and I have never seen them reverse decisions in the ten years I’ve sold here. 

It would be best to find a new venue to sell.

[ColoredInStone]

Etsy has 4 million sellers while utilizing computerized bots. There is no way Etsy will provide enough staffing to critique every shop who feels they should be allowed to sell on their site. 

[JDTotesnDolls]

Can your part be used on a weapon?  You say it cannot but is that absolutely true that can be attested to by information from gun experts?  

If it can be used on any weapon at all then Etsy has banned gun parts and yours would fall under that.

If it is something that will only fit cosplay guns or fake firearms they may be allowed only if you supply Etsy with information to that effect and edit your listings to reflect that.

Talking to Etsy is the only recourse you have and that is not here in the forums.  The moderators don't see every posting so if you want Etsy to reconsider then you need to talk to them.

[vintageNCtreasures]

I don't think the OP is saying his grips can not be used on a weapon.

He's saying these grips can "not" be used on assault type rifles which may or may not be banned.

His grips will only fit a 1911 pistol which would not fall under the same type of weapon as assault rifles.

But according to another post "As of May 25, 2021, we will no longer accommodate any gun parts or accessories that attach to a firearm." 

So it seems Etsy is not going to allow any gun parts or accessories that attach to any kind of firearm, a pistol, rifle, shotgun, etc. 

@GoodsEternal 
It's probably best to go to your listings and save the info because when Etsy removes them, you'll no longer be able to.

[ColoredInStone]

Etsy has begun to clean up their site in SO many ways...it’s not just about gun parts and these upcoming changes have recently, been announced.

Etsy will be bombarded with sellers who feel they have a right to sell her. 

[GoodsEternal]

Thank you all for the replies.

It's Etsy's platform and obviously their choice to make.

But to us it seems an overly broad brush to paint when separating out what can and can't be sold per policy does not require much effort or resources.

No one bans all T-shirt sales because a few people put offensive words or images on them.  So how do they filter and restrict listings on T-shirts?  That same methodology is applied to all types of products and is, just as easily, applied to "gun parts".

We sell grips made of various and very nice materials.  For those who don't know what a 1911 pistol is, it is iconic like the Model T Ford.  Except the 1911 stood the test of time better than the Model T did.  That is amazing when you consider it was invented 110 years ago. 

It's not uncommon for these pistols to be worth thousands of dollars.  Their owners are affluent and looking for another touch to make that heirloom piece stand out further.  When you understand this part of the market even slightly you see that some "gun parts" represent no additional functional value but do greatly increase the monetary value of the piece.

Again, it's Etsy's platform and their decision, but there are sellers here that have been selling them for a decade.  I can't imagine how much effort one particular competitor put into accomplishing 11,000 sales and 1400 5 star reviews.  Put yourself in that person's shoes for a minute.  A decade of hard work and earning their reputation on a daily basis.  Down the tube overnight based on a blanket policy which seems not well thought out.

The existing policy already kept parts which changed or enhanced functions of firearms from being listed and recognized that a few select items where ornamental in nature and there are sellers who put incredible work in the ornamental beauty of their grips.  True artists selling their works here.

It seems the political winds are blowing the opposite direction as the market made up of real people.  Why else pull away from a particular market at historic highs?  I honestly would have expected more resources put into this area, tuning of policies and expansion of it in a savvy and responsible way.

[dayspringcollectible]

@GoodsEternal 

I agree with your comments.  Unfortunately, admin rarely does anything in a "savvy and responsible way," and definitely not in a "thoughtful" manner.

They make blanket decisions, usually based on poor research or whatever voice is catching their attention at the moment.

Having been here for 10 years, based on past situations I would not expect them to issue exceptions.  In fact glue gun sellers better get ready, because Etsy's AI is rarely good enough to make such distinctions.

[mopata]

Ebay still allows gun parts but, their bots also occasionally  erroneously kick items off as being parts for "Assault Weapons".  You can also sell on Gun Broker with very few hassles.

[HDCustomPistolGrips]

Etsy is full of bull.........

[Octopunx]

I'm not sure I would ascribe this to "politics" as such, though I can see where that can be the case. With most removals it's s more of a blanket effort to not get caught up in any possible litigation. The platforms can easily create bots to just remove vast swaths of listings, and inevitably that will take down many authentic, licensed, accessories that a re legal, historical artifacts, costume items, etc etc. I can't list an item as "ivory colored" so how to describe cameos? The side effects of these things are not always obvious from the platform's side. It really sucks that it's taking out a lot of true artisans like you. 

[bradgoodell]

I don't agree with Etsy on this one.  I would much rather they focus on getting rid of the thousands of clearly non-handmade candy bar "gift bundles" and the herb/drug stuff packed with medical claims and disclaimers, like the shop I saw recently selling poisonous and hallucinogenic herbs.  

Maybe Etsy will work harder to clean up that crap.  But in the meantime, they will lose some incredible leather and wood workers (and you of course), none of which make something that is actually dangerous, from the site.  

[vintageNCtreasures]

Exactly! Grips, rifle slings are not dangerous but all these poisonous herbs being sold are but yet they're listed even after being reported along with a lot of other items that are prohibited but yet are still listed.

What makes Etsy look worse?
IMO it isn't these pistol grips, rifle slings.

[GlassyFields]

I agree. The broad sweep approach will have unintended consequences including preventing vintage, historic, decorative items.

I'd prepare to move - and let my customers know with shop announcements and social media. I'd message long term repeat buyers.

I'd also try engaging Etsy. I have no idea if they have the resources and desire to approach the issue more surgically but I do believe they should be given the opportunity.

[RiverCityJAC]

It will be hard to reason with the bot programs designed to scour the thousands upon thousands of worldwide Etsy shops looking for key words associated with firearm accessories.

Baby being tossed out with the bath water.

[Marmalady]

Etsy have spoken.
And the chance of them changing their mind on this is infinitesimal -- as others have said, it has not happened in the lifetime of Etsy

Gun parts & accessories will be banned for May 25th

Rather than complaining in the forum, a better use of your energy would be to transfer your listings to another venue before etsy start removing them.

And as for the gun market being at an all time high in the USA -- that is hardly something to celebrate. And Etsy obviously does not want to be part of that market.
A large part of Etsy's marketplace -- and which they are working to expand -- does not support widespread gun ownership of any kind so the loss of buyers for your type of item may not affect their bottom line as much as you suppose. 

[GoodsEternal]

First,

Discussing this rollout I think is exactly the type of thing this forum and forums, in general, are for.

Second,

Celebrate or not, record firearms sales and related are up year over year.  The "Defund the Police" contributed to people with common sense looking for means to defend themselves when those whose job it is to defend them are not supported. 

While you may not support widespread gun ownership, that is not up to you as it a right which is constitutionally protected.

Diversity and protection for some and not for others is longstanding in politics, the only thing that changes is which way the political wind blows.  Most businesses tend to follow the market and, yes, they make decisions along the way on if that market direction fits their own identity, values, strengths and weaknesses as a company.

If you are intellectually curious, browse Etsy categories and try to find through navigation (not search) anything firearm related.  You already won't find gun parts so the shadow ban has already begun.

You also won't find sporting goods in general so I tend to think what you say about buyers and sellers not being missed and won't be affecting bottom line is also incorrect.

All that being said, this is not our only sales channel and better to happen now rather than later after we invested more time into it.

Best regards,

Aett Armorers Team

[southernmadecandle]

There will be many babies thrown out with this cup of insignificant bathwater.

My advice would be to get into the reselling of imported Dildoes and Vibrators, Etsy seems to give their full support on that business model.

Heather

[GoodsEternal]

They seem to be going through an identity crisis.

What do they want to be?  A market place for handmade goods, artists, etc... 

Or like Amazon where you browse 20 of the same exact thing from the same exact Chinese wholesaler?

We were attracted to this sales channel because the race to the bottom on profit margin in competing with a flood of Chinese goods wasn't as bad as other places.

But in the short time we have been here, we see it is going that direction quickly.

Best regards,

Aett Armorers Team

[vintageNCtreasures]

@GoodsEternal I just read the policies on this and according to Etsy, Pistol grips, rifle  slings should be allowed based on the info on the help pages.
Pistol grips or rifle slings are cosmetic/decorative.
Pistol grips are really NO different that stocks that go on rifles/shotguns.

Scopes are mounted on rifles and IMO are NOT cosmetic or decorative. They're used so you can hit your target better.
ETA: clearly Etsy doesn't know much about guns and what is decorative on one.

COPIED below from the help pages:
However, some accessories for guns may be sold as long as they are either not affixed to the gun, or are purely cosmetic or decorative in nature. Some examples include:

• Cases and racks
• Holsters
• Scopes
• Stocks

https://www.etsy.com/legal/policy/weapons/207958817249

ETA: This page was updated on April 23, 2021.
Are they going to update it again a month later on May 25????

[SmudgePlant]

I think they are in the process of changing the rules.

I agree, the fact that they list scopes as cosmetic or decorative shows how little they know about firearms.

[WestNinthVintage]

@SmudgePlant You nailed it, they are not competent on the subject.

But they do not have to be. It is their platform, if they say that they are banning all products that are the color blue they can do that.

We do not have to like it. Or tolerate it. But we all agreed to the ToS so we have to abide by it or suffer the consequences.

@GoodsEternal You have great looking products. You will need to find a different platform to sell on. Etsy has spoken with a very broad ruling that will not be overturned.

Why is Etsy doing this? They are not having a good month on the Public Relations front. The Vice article(s) have painted a picture of a marketplace without rules, like the Wild West all over again. This is one of many knee-jerk reactions we as sellers can expect in the coming months as they work to clean up the platform. Expect more rule changes, more bots and more posts about closed listings/shops.

[GoodsEternal]

Yes, that was current policy.

And yes, as another mentioned why scopes are included in that is beyond me.

The email we received was anything that attaches to a firearm is in violation.

A

Already when I try to use category navigation there is nothing leading to gun parts.  Sporting goods don't even show up on navigation.

Talk about a lot of babies getting thrown out with the bath water...

[JMOldeVintage]

I'd wager that there are a number of handmade items being sold that do not comply with Local/State's rules & regulations much less any Federal laws that are on the books. Etsy's handbook is "vague" enough, encouraging Shops to follow all of their local laws.

But the thing is, some items that are vintage or true handmade & fit neatly on Etsy without any of the amendments to their policies cannot be shipped to certain US States or other Countries. It is up to each Shop Owner to know if they can export "XYZ Item" to "This Country/State". 

While I get that Etsy is a Global Marketplace; that certain things cannot be exported to other Countries; that certain listings are seriously frowned upon by residents or ruling bodies of some Countries; at some point I see a straw that breaks the camel's back.

I hope that Etsy follows their policies without creating a nightmare for Shop Owners. Maybe their bots need to be better trained? 

[AudaciousAttire]

You are reselling necklaces. They can be found online very easily. This is against TOS and can get you shut down.