blogpost on US Pirg and CPSIA

[Former_Member]

http://www.zianet.com/ehusman/weblog/2009/01/uspirghanlons-razor-meets-its-match.html

[Former_Member]

OOOOO. Very interesting. Definately affirms my disdain for the PIRG. The WAPIRG is run by morons and it doesn't surprise that the same is apparently true at the national level.

[Former_Member]

I'm not sure who irritates me more: the USPIRG, or this person who seems to be sticking it to everyone.

As one of the comments mentions, I don't see him (or her?) offering alternatives.

[Savantpatterns]

Generation says:
"I'm not sure who irritates me more: the USPIRG, or this person who seems to be sticking it to everyone. As one of the comments mentions, I don't see him (or her?) offering alternatives."

Perhaps you should read it rather than scan it. Certainly you should *read* it before commenting on it.

PS. You may know Grim Reader better as Mr. Fashion-Incubator and my right hand in fighting cpsia and creating proposals and working through this morass.

[TheWrapScrapPony]

I'm confused. Never seen/heard the term PIRG/USPIRG? It's all over the article and I can't figure out who/what it is!

[Former_Member]

Kathleen, that one wasn't me. My same first name but not me.

But I still don't quite get where he is coming from. Maybe there isn't enough coffee.

The USPIRG raises my blood pressure every time I read about them.

[Savantpatterns]

Generations, you say that wasn't you but it's your image with "cpsia jail" etc. I fail to notice the difference.

And since you ask, Grim Reader is doing a whole heckuva lot, and he doesn't even make crafts, this law doesn't affect him. Iow, instead of criticizing him, you should be thanking him. I couldn't even begin to quantify but what he has done, has a whole lot more impact on all of you, than anything any of you are doing will impact yourselves.

And for someone who asked on his site, no, he's not "the mole". Believe me, the last thing Etsians are is low key. Believe me, the CPSC couldn't be any more aware of all of you than if you'd taken out billboards surrounding the cpsc offices. Just as Waxman et al are getting calls and emails from all of you, they are also getting angry emails and calls from *consumers* who are livid that many etsians here intend to ignore the law, willfully disobey it and somehow think they have the right to put their profit before children's safety. It is really shocking that you all think you're so invisible.

[Former_Member]

BlessedBaby, "PIRG" stand for "Public Interest Research Group."

But don't take my uninformed word for it (*wink*).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIRG

[Former_Member]

Kathleen, I don't intend to ignore the law, and I'm FAR from the only Etsian who has publicly said so. Plenty of us know we are VERY visible here.

And I did go back to GrimReader and comment this morning. I know you guys are "on our side." I've been over to Fashion Incubator and sent lots of people there myself because of the good information over there. When I post comments to blogs, I DO post my shop name and Etsy store; that's just how I do things.

*sigh*

[Former_Member]

i post this topic several days ago. might be worth reading for anybody not planning on meeting the feb.10 deadline for compliance.
don't throw anything at me....just something to think about.


http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6011713

[Former_Member]

First of all, giving good, solid, factual, well researched information, which Grim Reader has done, IS helping. Nobody can plan or work effectively from a base of ignorance.

Shedding light on who pushed this law and their basis for doing so is also helping, because if you know who was in favor of it and why, then you can speak knowledgeably by to your reps, the media, and the public about why they are wrong.

For instance, when Etsians argue that small crafters should be exempt, US PIRG and other consumer interest groups and their drones are going around saying, "They can make toys and products just as dangerous as the big guys, they think they should have the right to make dangerous products, there's no reason micro-producers can't make safe toys, and they are putting profits ahead of The Children."

Grim Reader pointed that out, and also gave you the answer for it- nobody is arguing that products should not be safe or that we can't make safe products. The issue is that phrase 'economics of scale.' Of course small crafters can make safe products. Pirg is engaging in an incredibly dishonest logical fallacy there (as Grim Reader pointed out). What micro-business can't do is afford the testing as the law is written (come August, when wet testing is required).
It's also useful to know that PIRG is telling your representatives that testing is only about 50 dollars per item. Those of you who have gotten test quotes from testing businesses understand why this is false (I don't know if PIRG is as dishonest as they seem, or only stupid)- but the point is, armed with the information in the Grim Reader article, you can contact your representatives and says something like, "According to PIRG's FAQ testing is only fifty dollars per product. However, they seem not to be understanding that we have to test each individual component separately. My cute baby booties use five colors of yarn and one ribbon. That's seven tests- one for each component and another test on the finished product even if the first six tests all come back zero on the lead limits. And I would like to know where they found the fifty dollar testing, because I sent a request for estimates to three companies, and here is what they told me..."

PIRG has the ear of Henry Waxman in a way nobody here does. You need to know the lies they are whispering in his ear so you know how to frame your argument to counter their dishonesty and misrepresentations. That article helps you do that.

Knowing who actually IS behind the law (PIRG, the Democratic party) and who was decidedly NOT (President Bush fought it, as did Nancy Nord on the Commission and three Republican Senators) will enable you to be more productive in directing your concerns to those who can actually do something about it. Had people been aware of these facts six months ago, a lot less time would have been wasted blaming Bush for a law he never wanted and only signed because the Democrats pushed a veto-proof bill in front of him. I wish he'd never signed it, but it was a completely unproductive waste of time to blame him for it as much as I saw him blamed for it here in these forums- it was also counter-productive. Basically, for a lot of people it's like their friend next door has been throwing rocks through their windows at night and bragging about it in the local paper, and the folks getting their windows busted have wasted time blaming the obnoxious neighbor across the street because he kills his grass, plays his music too loud, and drives a gas guzzling, exhaust spewing, noisy hot-rod. Maybe he does all those things- but when everybody knows he was being evicted in November and anybody could have found out in five minutes he wasn't the rock-thrower, blaming the target of hate living across the street has actually helped the next door neighbors stock up on the rocks they are throwing and set in place orders preventing you from fixing your broken windows.
For those interested in knowing more about the special interest groups pushing this bill and why, so you can frame your calls to Waxman and other Congressional members so they answer the objections Waxman has been hearing, read the Grim Reader again and see what PIRG says and why they're wrong. You might also find these posts informative:

http://heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/2009/01/special-interest-groups-behind-cpsia.html

http://heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/2009/01/nation-of-informants.html
That one also has important information about the portions of the law that encourage anonymous complaints. If you think PIRG isn't reading here keeping notes, well, I hope you're right. I doubt it. They strike me as pretty pompous, self-righteous, do-gooders, and those sorts are generally the first to take advantage of the ability to tattle anonymously- as some of us remember from grade school.;-)

http://heartkeepercommonroom.blogspot.com/2009/01/cpsia-german-toy-company-pulls-out-of.html

Factual information is always better than emotional arguments and kneejerk political partisan=ship.

[Former_Member]

I agree, factual information is good to have. Many many sites have factual information out there, written concisely, without the vitriol. The ForbesOnline stories are a perfect example, as are many other mainstream news stories and not-so-mainstream blogs that have been linked here on Etsy from time to time.

There is plenty of information out there to be had without lumping Etsians together as a bunch of ill-informed yahoos. That's NOT entirely factual. Neither is mis-quoting and mis-attributing.

But since I'm "ill-informed" and apparently jerk my knees too much (*smile*), I will instead focus my efforts today on new and fun ways to use the dye I just bought, teaching the kiddoes about ice crystals and snowflakes and doing some fun math lessons, doing laundry, and playing good music. Trying to work on the CPSIA while still trying to live the rest of my life is not yielding good results; it's yielding mis-quotes (without retraction) and finger-pointing and bored children, and I'm also apparently giving the rest of Etsy a bad name by making GrimReader's point about how clueless we all are, not to mention headaches from too little sleep.

Thanks to DeputyHeadmistress for staying on top of the CPSIA for us. :-) You have a lot of important points, and if anything, I think you stand up as an example of how NOT-clueless Etsians are.

[Former_Member]

Generations Tie-Dye, I am not sure what you mean, but want to clarify just in case, that when I saying information is better than knee-jerk political partisan-ship and facts are better than being uninformed, I wasn't speaking specifically of you, but of a general tone I've seen in going back and reading weeks worth of Etsy posts.

I agree that GR and Kathleen reacted overhastily to your mistake in calling GR Pirg, and that probably smarts. I agree that GR is a bit sharp edged with his sarcasm- this doesn't bother me much (I like it, actually), because my family's love-language is sarcasm, but I know we're weird and I try to remember not everybody has the same annoying sense of humour that I do-

But I think it's important to recognize the objective truths behind the sarcasm.

There is a lot of misinformation on Etsy- I think not because Etsians in general are clueless, but because there are simply more people posting here than at the Fashion Incubator, and Kathleen, who is very well informed, checks the misinformation, and The Smart Mama doesn't have comments at all.
Walter Olson has more on the line as far as getting it right- he's writing for a major publication under his own name and so he's going to have to be more careful than anybody posting here (that's not to say none of us are careful, but that for a number of reasons, some are not, and there are not the same internal checks and controls for people here as there for folks like Olson).

The more people talking, the more likely some of them will be mistaken. That doesn't make Etsy bad- but it doesn't make Etsy as reliable, in general terms, as a couple other sites, either. I have learned I do have to check my information here more carefully, depending on who's giving it. For instance- I can't count how often I have read here that this is Bush's bill and all his fault. It took me exactly five minutes to google this and learn from the NYT, of all sources, that Bush hated the bill and fought it, and Democrats pushed it through over his objections. Hmmmm. So, I wonder how useful it was for people to contact their senators who actually voted for it BECAUSE it was a Democrat bill, and say to them, "How could you let Bush do this to me?"
I think reps who got those sorts of letters mostly likely laughed and blew them off as uninformed and ignored them, understandably so.
I've read here, and believed it to be true, that the lead levels in the charm that killed that four year old child were already illegal. I think they might have been in China, but according to the Smart Mama, they weren't illegal in the States. We only had laws about lead levels in paints.
I read here repeatedly that President Obama could simply declare the CPSIA null and void, and a lot of people thought I was just downright mean for pointing out that basic civics understanding should tells us Presidents cannot simply overturn laws.

So... no, I wouldn't agree Etsians et al are clueless, but I would agree that there is a need to sift more carefully here, just because here the comments are coming from a much broader number of people. Sometimes that's really good- I think I find a wider range of creative responses and ideas here, and sometimes it means I've needed to be more careful about reporting as factual something I find here and nowhere else.

[Former_Member]

Deputy, nice to know you weren't referring to me. I've seen the misinformation here, too, and I've tried to correct the misconceptions, even as I'm making Mr. Fashion Incubator's point about us clueless Etsians. (That means he lumped you in there too, BTW.)

As for sarcasm, it's pretty much how I communicate. I have to consciously lay off it to some extent in my writing because it doesn't come across well in writing. But there's sarcasm and there's vitriol, and the tone of the post really didn't to me seem so different than the reactionary stuff that's already all over the USPIRG's own site. Nobody I write to or post to or talk to is someone who wouldn't be turned off by the tone in either place, and I personally wouldn't use it as persuasion for anyone I'm trying to convince about the mess that is the CPSIA. I can only imagine how seriously my Congressman's office would take me if I sent them a link to that post; I'm finally starting to make some headway there!

And as for "facts," as long as I'm still smack on the top of his page getting free views to my shop for writing something I corrected 3 minutes later, I'm being mis-represented. That's not sarcasm. That's unprofessional, it's not factual, and it sets the tone for the article which follows. I've sent a LOT of people to Fashion Incubator, between Facebook and Etsy and Change.org, and while I don't expect thanks, I also don't expect to be publicly hung out to dry by someone who's supposedly on my side. Talk about a knee-jerk reaction. I'm not "stinging," but I'm definitely not impressed, and once upon a time I was. :-(

Just sayin'.

[Former_Member]

BTW, thanks for your last comment on the blog. Made me smile. :-)

[Savantpatterns]

Tie dye, I admit to being at a total loss. You say you didn't say something that I see your name next to. Headmistress says you made an error so I can go with that and just pass on trying to understand what transpired.

There is something else that really concerns me at this point that Etsians must understand.

Okay, when I attended that Product Safety Council meeting in Washington DC on December 3rd, I was ::shocked:: that even at that time, the CPSC was well aware of both Etsy and eBay which was striking because even then, a lot of etsians didn't know about the CPSC.

According to internal conversations I've read elsewhere, it is *claimed* that there is a growing backlash amongst consumers over Etsy vendors. It is further claimed that Waxman et al are getting a substantive number of calls and emails from consumers about Etsians who feel they are above the law or intend to ignore it. It is claimed that they have said they feel it is Etsians who are the ones putting profit before safety, not "big companies". The sense I get of it is that people resent the sense of entitlement that c'mon, admit it, a lot of people have here.

Btw, the person who told this party I've not named, is a newspaper reporter. This reporter told her what Waxman's et al offices have said consumers are telling them about Etsy.

The point is, vendors on Etsy are not invisible. CPSC knew they were here well before Etsy knew of the CPSC. There is no need of a "mole" when everything here is out in the open. I don't know if Matt really did say they were not going to pull any listings but people have taken it that way. I know that ebay is taking a hard line on this. Did you know that the CPSC has their own profile there? They probably have their own profile here too and as well on Hyena Cart. Etsy management has some tough issues to grapple with and I don't envy them because their vendors aren't making it easy on them. The thing no one realizes is this is the issue that could pull Etsy down.

As has been stated elsewhere previously (namely by Jennifer Taggart, attorney), it's not just a situation whereby someone reports someone who's not in compliance either because they're a consumer or someone who is out of it because they are following the law, an entity can be sued by their competitors for unfair trade practices. This means that technically, if eBay is toeing the line and enforcing this and Etsy and Hyena Cart are not, eBay can sue both of them. Etsy makes a pretty big target. I just can't imagine how some Etsy vendors imagine they are invisible. Like I said before, they couldn't be more visible if they took out billboard placed 360 degrees around CPSC headquarters.

[Former_Member]

OK, this is apparently how I "keep making" Mr. F-I's point: Page 15 of Rabbithorn's thread, near the bottom, I alerted her to it. Here's the link to THAT page of THAT thread: http://www.etsy.com/forums_thread.php?thread_id=6011520&page=15

GenerationsTieDye says:
"Oh, looky, Rabbihorns, you caught the interst of USPIRG:
http://www.zianet.com/ehusman/weblog/2009/01/uspirghanlons-razor-meets-its-match.html"
Posted at 10:36 pm, January 25 2009 EST

Second post, on the heels of the first:
GenerationsTieDye says:
"Sorry, not USPIRG...The Grim Reader.....

This is what happens when I think at a different pace from my typing.
But still, it's out there."

That's what I posted HERE that seems to be at the root of the snarky comment added to the beginning of the blog post, y'know, the one with my name on it telling readers to read the posts before assuming he was USPIRG. (Not only did I read both posts, I also read a few others, and even tried to view his complete profile.) Fingers mis-type, and I corrected it right afterward. Either he only read the one post without reading the correction, or he deliberately put it up there to make a point without mentioning that he was, well, WRONG.

ON the blog post, my comment was: "Good morning. Getting mis-attributed sure is a lovely thing to wake up to in the morning.

I read this last night, didn't "get" it, let Rabbithorns know this was here (it IS about her, thought it might be nice), even corrected my typing (you DO know there's no Edit feature on Etsy posts, right?), came back to read it again this morning.

As one of the apparently grossly mis-informed Etsy sellers looking for clarification, I'm not sure I found it here either.

I suppose having my shop name waved around at the top of someone's blog isn't the worst thing that could happen to me. Thanks for the free publicity.
The Other Deb | Homepage | 01.26.09 - 7:09 am | "

What I did NOT write was: "Perhaps no one can follow the dizzying intellect bashing any and all parties working to clarify the law in one direction or the other, including those who use unbleached organic cotton to make baby onesies and children's tees and even stuffed toys and dolls in "natural?" Yes, such people do exist, and there are parents who purchase them. Visit any Whole Foods market if you think I am making this up.

There is likely a great deal of agreement that USPIRG is frightening and downright obnoxious in its collective self-righteousness and ignorance on lead and phthalates and the CPSIA in general. Can YOU offer alternatives to the CPSIA? Do you have a better idea? A lot of people could really use one, or perhaps many, constructive ideas and alternatives that can make this work.
Deb | 01.25.09 - 10:57 pm | # " This is the one signed by "Deb" right after the first chronological post, which I referenced last night; it looks like it was written either just before I read the blog post or while I was reading it. Me, I'm "The Other Deb," the one with the website and shop name. Follow the link, you'll find me.

My whole point in letting Rabbithorns know she was mentioned in a blog was to POINT OUT that we're not invisible here. Frankly, a lot of the points Mr. F-I made were points that I've made here plenty of times,

Life's too short for me to lose sleep over it, but it irks me to be misrepresented to people I don't even know by someone purporting to give us the "facts" - even if it's someone on my "side." Who knows, maybe I'll get a sale or three from the shop visits.

Meanwhile, if anyone was hoping to discourage me from "craftivism," you just did it. I don't need to spend my day defending myself; I have stuff that has been put off for far too long - like my business, my family, and myself.

*headdesk*

[Former_Member]

What I find interesting about etsy is the potentially diverse set of backgrounds that we come from and yet we all have making things by hand in common. I have to rely on the more informed to fill me in. The internet is such a great way to quickly convey info all over the world. Infinately more engaging than the dishes piling up in my sink. I apreciate people getting together and trying to work this out, but we all need to know when to take a break from it and address the little things that are getting away from us. I see people trying very hard to make sure that getting paid for doing handmade work is not just some hazy dream. Our weakness is our diversity and so is our strength. By diversity , I'm talking about how unique each of us is inside. That is also interesting to see on the forums because, it is hard to know the other stuff. I'm going to make some pancakes for dinner with real maple syrup and take a pink grapefruit bubblebath and when I get up in the morning I'll start compiling my list for the save handmade quilt project. There's is SO MUCH OUT THERE to learn and Rome just wasn't built in a day. GET SOME CHOCOLATE OR SOMETHING. And have a good evening we all earned THAT!

[Former_Member]

KathleenF....unfortunately makes a lotta damn sense. Here is where the rubber meets the road folks.

[Former_Member]

I appreciate the work that KathleenF has done on the CPSIA and especially making her website open to public on this subject. It has helped me personally for fact-checking on this subject, which can at times be very fast-paced.

I am put off, however, by her increasing brazen disdain for etsy sellers -- both in her own websites and here. It makes me, as an etsy seller, wonder at some of her objectives.

We are not all guilible or guileless or uninformed or unintelligent as she seems to make us all out to be.

[Former_Member]

FYI, here is a list of some of the special interest groups that are pushing this law, as a vintage and antique dealer it affects me greatly too...

Consumers Union, Consumer Federation of America, Kids in Danger, National Research Center for Women & Families, Public Citizen, Union of Concerned Scientists, and U.S. Public Interest Research Group

[Former_Member]

Union of Concerned Scientists.

I have to look them up. I mean, really. Lead in fabric? Really? Lead in yarn? Really?

[Former_Member]

marking

[Former_Member]

Its not a personal attack in any way but I too have noticed that KathleenF seems to have a certain amount of...I don't exactly want to say disdain...but she seems to negate the validity of the small seller who for whatever reason does not want to become a part of the wholesale market. Sometimes you just want to be a small artisan making a few items because its what you love to do. It is a little worrisome that someone's talent would be looked down upon simply because they aren't ready to manufacture in large quantities BUT you have to look at where she's coming from

--First and foremost the purpose of her site was to complement her book--on manufacturing so therefore it would make sense that she would view things from that point of reference.

---Second: she is a pattern maker herself by trade, therefore it would make sense again that her point of reference would be from a manufacturing standpoint.

So all in all...she means well. I don't think its a personal attack on any shop or person on Etsy...she's right that there is a good deal of misinformation and I appreciate that she is fighting for all. I've always stood behind her premise that the last thing a micro-producer wants is to be entirely exempted as a class just because of size from the regulations of the CPSIA. I think that would be the death of handmade not the CPSIA. ---parents would interpret it as meaning the items were not safe, plain and simple, and CPSIA compliance would in essence become a marketing tool that would in essence bury small guys like us.

What should have been the bone of contention all along was a clarification of the testing procedure. ---I think what would be appropriate would be:

----XRF testing for all goods entirely made by the manufacturer regardless of size...Mattel makes their own material that is then made into Barbies--likewise a small seller may make their own wool yarn from sheep that they own and then dye the wool yarn as well(the concern would be the dye).

---all other types of craft goods could be compliant by the crafter being able to purchase from companies that already test and have something like the GCCs on file listing the company, etc. When large companies see that the small folks that craft only want to purchase certified compliant items, more companies would want to test...

[meredithdillman]

I think that is a good point. They are doing everything they can to be helpful and give us information.

Assuming nothing we would use would never need to be testing is not helping anyone. If a big company can have a lead tainted charm, it's impossible you could have bought something similar from a jewelry supplier. That's why it's a good idea to look at what recalls have been for (lead charms from craft stores and some baby bling items for example) and reseach what items have been failing in tests (you can find that on smartmama's blog) and avoid using those. One of the AG's also mentioned thrift stores should avoid vinyl/pvc.

Asking suppliers is a great start becuause they will learn that people want certified supplies. That seems to be happening already.