Tags and Keywords

[#1]

Hi everyone!

I've received a few convos asking about keywords vs. tags. Let me explain.

Tags are directly related to Etsy Search - Google (and other search engines) don't weigh tags too much (if at all), so if you are thinking about optimizing your shop for search engines - you should be thinking about the keywords you use in your titles and the very first paragraph of your item listing descriptions. More info on that here:
http://www.etsy.com/help/article/247

Tags on etsy must be single words or common compound words. I'll give you an example: "sterling silver" is a fine tag. However, "textured silver" would be two words together so that should be two tags. "Aqua blue", is fine as one tag but "red blue green" is a no-no.

I hope that helps!

Best,
Danielle

[Paperika]

Thank You Danielle for hearing us out. Tangled Metal, I need to reread your post again! I'll revisit this later in the morn' when I wake up!;)

[thedreamygiraffe]

I posted this in another thread, but I want to post it here, too, just in case Danielle doesn't go back to the other one:

But, Danielle, with all due respect, that doesn't clear it up at all for me -- because what you're saying goes completely against what is considered relevant.

It says specifically in the rules that we are not allowed to tag "silver earrings" as one tag -- but every listing that comes up as most relevant under a search for silver earrings does just that.

If this is indeed the rule, Etsy needs to change the search algorithm so those breaking the rules aren't rewarded like they are now.

Will you do me a favor and run a search for "silver earrings" under relevancy and take a look at the tags of most relevant listings so you can see firsthand why I (and others) are so upset?

I'm NOT trying to call out, but Etsy is saying to do one thing and it's completely counter intuitive to being found under relevant searches.

It's really unfair that Etsy is telling me "don't tag your nursery art as an nursery art with one tag" and then making those who are doing that more relevant than me. I WANT to abide by the rules. I do. But as it is, abiding by the rules is going to kill my business on Etsy when the relevant search is default.

Right now, if someone searches "nursery art", they're not finding me, because I'm following Etsy's tagging rules. But they ARE finding those who are not following the rules -- because Etsy is making "nursery art" more relevant than "nursery" & "art".

This is losing sellers who are following the rules money every single day, I'd bet.

I'm sorry but I'm just feeling desperate here. If I don't sell art, I don't pay my bills.

[SleepingKnight]

I am sorry for stirring the pot so much. I had no idea that it would cause so much trouble and apparently I have completely misunderstood Etsy's rule for tagging. I honestly thought that the rule would allow for descriptive phrases like Renaissance Fair or Chainmail Necklace because the words are describing the type of fair or the type of necklace.

I am agreement with thedreamygiraffe that if this is incorrect and against the rules that the rules need to be changed. Etsy should by all means make it easier for people searching on Etsy to find what they are looking for. If tags are going to be weighted in a search at all then they should be able to work WITH descriptions and title or you will start to have word titles like "red crimson rojo necklace choker glass beads charms neck" and other titles that do not sound at all coherent because they come up in the searches better.

I was in no way suggesting tag stuffing in my other thread and said that multiple times. But there is still great confusion in people's minds why saying "bunny rabbit" is okay when bunny means rabbit and it is not okay to say "silver earrings" when that could be describing the color or the materials. Maybe Etsy should add a color field where you could put a primary color and secondary colors in a list and use that for color searching. Then they could use the Materials section for search instead of just leaving it there with no real function other than the buyer seeing what the material used is only after getting to the shop.

It is apparent that some Etsy shops are abusing the system and some are following the rules. And then there are some who are just misunderstanding some of the rules. The only people that should have any preferential treatment are the ones who pay extra for it. Meaning those who pay $0.20 to re-list their items. They should be rewarded slightly.

Anyone who does exactly the right thing and follows the rules (once they are very clear to all) should have the best chance to be found in a relevant search. I was just trying to help people to be more relevant in their tagging, that was all.

[thedreamygiraffe]

Anyone who does exactly the right thing and follows the rules (once they are very clear to all) should have the best chance to be found in a relevant search.

-------------------------

EXACTLY.

And as it is now, it's the people who ARE NOT following the rules who have the best chance of being found.

[Former_Member]

Personally I'm glad that you stirred it up and got a more detailed discussion going about it. You didn't sound at all to me like you were advocating a free for all on tag stuffing. In common sense terms there is clearly a difference between using multi-word tags to keep the search more targeted and jamming as many unrelated words as you can into the tag fields. I wish that Chad would lock the programmers and the rest of the staff in the same room until they can all come out singing the same tune and speaking with one voice. I'm sure that I'm not the only one that isn't thrilled with how long it takes to get clear answers to technical questions and how much time I'm having to spend on it and I used to be in the IT field. It shouldn't have to be this confusing.

[thedreamygiraffe]

Also, I'd like to know:

If tag stuffing is not allowed, how come anytime I check the front page, at least half the listings chosen -- by Etsy -- to be featured have stuffed tags?

[Former_Member]

thedreamygiraffe : i just searched for silver earrings and found what you were saying was true....that's not fair to us who are using tags correctly in hopes of being found while the people who use them incorrectly are most likely to be found. i would sincerely appreciate a clarification...

[Former_Member]

I'm so confused I'm going to watch CSI, I'll check in on this later, very interesting but too much for my tired head at the moment.

[thedreamygiraffe]

graciebeal says

thedreamygiraffe : i just searched for silver earrings and found what you were saying was true....that's not fair to us who are using tags correctly in hopes of being found while the people who use them incorrectly are most likely to be found. i would sincerely appreciate a clarification...

-----------------

It's true for silver earrings, it's true for nursery art print...it's true for every single two to three word search I've tried.

Glad to see someone who tried it for themselves and saw it, though!

I'm beginning to think I'm going nuts.

[FallenAngelBrass]

daniellexo says

I've also asked Natalie to revise this blog post: www.etsy.com/blog/en/2011/putting-your-shop-on-top-etsy%E2%80%99s-m...

*******************************************************

Not just Natalie, but the Etsy search engineers are saying that the relevancy search rewards tags that customers use to search - no distinguishing between "allowed" and "not allowed" tags.

Going by everything the engineering team has told us, the present tagging rule is soon to be outmoded and necessary. From what I have understood from the people working on the (soon to be default) relevancy search, this prohibition against certain word phrases is hurting sellers who abide by it. The relevancy search rewards sellers who choose tags that are the very words used by customers using the relevancy search. No distinction is made between "OK" and "not OK" tags.

Revising a blog post does not change how the relevancy search actually works.

This video is an interview with the Etsy search engineers. It's 23 minutes and very worth watching:
http://livestre.am/UbyY

[thedreamygiraffe]

It's not about a BLOG post.

The facts are the facts.

The rule may be that we can't use "silver earrings" as one tag...but that is precisely the kind of tagging that's being counted as relevancy.

Revising the blog post won't change that.

Anyone can run a search in two minutes and see this for themselves.

I'm not exaggerating, I'm not making it up.

Run a search for silver earrings under relevancy and check the tags.

[FlyingAce]

Thanks for this post. I am working on correcting some of my tags at the moment.
I just wondered, what if the colors are something that is found together, like "black and white" or "red white and blue". I tend to search these terms at times when I'm making treasuries and to me it seems like all one term. If an item is tagged with "black" and also "white" will it come up in a search for "black and white"?
Thanks so much!
Ashley

[poisonpear]

Flyingace, I say keep the "black and white" and "red white and blue" tags, as these are common search terms, and common colour schemes.

[Former_Member · Accepted solution]

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to chime back in to make sure you knew I/we are still listening and working on clearing up confusion.

As I mentioned, we'll be coming up with clearer language and another updated relevancy tips blog post - very soon. We also have a live online lab (that will be recorded and archived) on Tuesday. You can check that out here: http://www.etsy.me/onlinelabs

We want this transition to be beneficial for sellers who work hard to honestly describe their work while following the Do's and Don'ts. I can promise you that!

In the meantime, I encourage you to keep posting your questions, but please don't knowingly break the Do's and Don'ts or encourage others to.

We'll (our product team, policy admin, and engineers) make this work and we'll communicate a solution and clarification soon! (Not making promises - but I imagine this will be the first thing on a few of our plates for Monday morning!)

Best,
Danielle

[thedreamygiraffe]

Danielle, I do really appreciate your popping in on a Sunday and assuring us that you guys are working on this.

But Danielle, could you please answer my question?

Writing a new blog post with clearer rules isn't going to do any good with the rules are completely counteractive to how search is working.

Will you please run a search for silver earrings and check out the tags for most relevant listings and see what I mean?

All most the relevant listings DO have "silver earrings" as one tag.

[Former_Member]

Okay I have a question! I used Irish Waxed Linen to make some of my bracelets. But, I have noticed some people typing in Waxed Irish Linen...should I include both versions in my tags?

[FlyingAce]

Thank you so much Danielle!
I had a question similar to jewelrybyleandra above.
If I have an item for men, do I need separate tags for men and man and him?
Will a customer searching for a man gift find it if I have it tagged "men"?

[FallenAngelBrass]

Danielle, what is the actual purpose of the compound word vs. non-compound word rule? Does this rule serve any purpose in the relevancy search?

The Etsy search engineers have recommended that we tag with whatever word pairs will best match what buyers are using to find our type of product. What actual harm does a non-compound word pair do that a compound word pair does not?

[Former_Member]

FallenAngelBrass says Edited on Aug 7, 2011
This video is an interview with the Etsy search engineers. It's 23 minutes and very worth watching:
livestre.am/UbyY
--------------------------------------------------------
Great video you found.
I just searched for coffee table which they gave us as a search example in the video. Guess what I found? No surprise, all those items on the top of relevancy search have the tag “coffee table” (one word). Etsy???

[saburkitty]

*marking*

eta: because my mark button doesn't always mark

[thedreamygiraffe]

SilentRoses says

FallenAngelBrass says Edited on Aug 7, 2011
This video is an interview with the Etsy search engineers. It's 23 minutes and very worth watching:
livestre.am/UbyY
--------------------------------------------------------
Great video you found.
I just searched for coffee table which they gave us as a search example in the video. Guess what I found? No surprise, all those items on the top of relevancy search have the tag “coffee table” (one word). Etsy???

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This is the case I've found for EVERY two to three word search I've run. the most relevant listings DO have those two to three words as one tag.

[thedreamygiraffe]

And most laughably (or tragically) -- "red blue green" is given over and over as a specific example of tag stuffing.

Run a relevancy search for "red blue green" and see just what's relevant (to what I'm looking for).

Yep, that's right. Those listings tagged as "red blue green" (one tag).

And you know what? If I'm searching for specifically something with red blue and green in it... those listings ARE actually relevant.

But this is an exact example of Etsy telling us what not to do...and then punishing those of us who abide by the rule.

If you're not tag stuffing, you aren't being found as relevant, Etsy, in two to three word searches. The Admin making the tagging rules need to sit down with the tech team and actually run some searches. It won't take ten minutes to see the absolute, irrefutable truth of this.

I love Etsy. I really, really, really do.

But this just doesn't make any sense at all.

Get rid of the rule and ridiculous tag stuffing will punish itself. Using phrases that make sense and are being searched for (even red blue green!) will HELP our buyers find precisely what they're looking for, and nothing else.

[poisonpear]

I"m starting to think that Search might be working fine now, but it's the whole tagging system that's making things hard to find.... when the rules we're supposed to follow make us harder to find, rather than easier, there is a problem.

[thedreamygiraffe]

This is the truth. Relevancy search actually seems to work better than it ever has. But the rules are outdated and don't match up.

[misala]

thedreamygiraffe, I absolutely agree with you! To make it fair for all, instead of having 13 fixed tags to tag on, maybe we should have a fixed number of characters we can use as tags, and this is exactly what Google is doing with the 160 characters description indexing!