Questions about self-promotion and watermarks...

[NulionPhoto]

Okay folks, I have another few questions about my shop.

I was poking around on the Teams and such, trying to promote my shop a little (Which I'm having trouble doing, and may need a bit of assistance on!), and one very helpful team member there suggested that I take the watermarks off of my photos.

Now...I'm...concerned, about my work being stolen. I don't know if it's something I really SHOULD be that concerned about, but it does give me the jitters a little because someone could simply right click one of my photos, save the photo to their desktop, and go get 'em printed.

The reason this person (D'oh, name escapes me at the moment) suggested doing this was because of treasuries; Etsy has a policy (I'm told, at least) of not allowing watermarked photos or treasuries with watermarks in the photos onto the front page, and plus people don't like to show watermarked images in treasuries.

How true is this?

Should I just offer a lower-resolution image for the main photograph, and then put the higher-res watermarked image as a secondary image?

As I'd mentioned, I'm also having difficulty figuring out the best, least-intrusive and annoying way to promote my shop. Teams seem to be a fine way to do it, but at the same time, it feels like walking into a room full of shop owners all holding up "Me! Me!" signs, and holding up your own; you just kinda blend into the crowd, if you know what I mean.

Are there any techniques that you folks have, that have netted you views and sales?

And also, if posting stuff and promoting within teams is a good idea, then how often should I do it? Kind of a fine line between being annoying, and drawing people into the shop to have a look-see.

Never expected this whole thing to be so difficult! *laughs*

Anyway, any advice you guys could provide would be wonderful; you've all been such a huge help in the past :)

[Former_Member]

I know there are people who have gotten to the FP with watermarks - I think it just depends on where you put it and how huge it is. I tend to avoid putting pics in my treasuries that have huge front and center watermarks on them, but I certainly do understand why you would want to do so.

You do whatever's most comfortable for you.

[CopperLeafStudios]

There's no specific policy, but it is likely you'll get into less treasuries if your images have watermarks.

That said, treasuries aren't the best way to market your work either :) So if you feel more comfortable having a watermark, go for it! Your thought on using a low-res image is a good alternative though.


As for promotion, Teams are nice, but think of them more as the company water cooler than a way to promote. You won't get very far if you only promote to your colleagues. You want to promote to people who might actually buy your work. This can include:

~ working on your SEO to better connect with people actively looking for your type of items
~ passing out business cards to people who might be interested in what you do
~ going to car shows and using your Etsy shop to augment your in-person sales
~ joining car newsgroups to network with classic car lovers
~ advertising on subject-specific blogs

(replace "car" with bird, nature, etc. to fit all your lines!)

[NulionPhoto]

Thank you guys for the advice! :)

I think what I'm going to do as far as watermarks go is make a lower-resolution, non-watermarked image...but keep the higher-resolution, watermarked image in there as a detail shot, but make it image 2 or something like that.

As for the promotion stuff...

Okay, working on my SEO is something I know little to nothing about. I'll try and figure something out though if I can.

Business cards are a nice idea! I've got some ideas for a place I can put them, too.

Now, I already do go to car shows; that's where I got some of my photos, even. As for how I could SELL the photos there...I'm not sure. Opening a booth is one way, but I don't know if I actually have enough in my shop just yet to really justify it. I put things up there as I make them, and I've got plenty in the pipeline, but only some of it is automobile-related. I'd like to stay diverse in terms of subject matter :) I just happen to go to lots of auto shows in the summertime.

Car/nature/etc newsgroups is a good idea too...I'll have to try that out, see if I can scrounge up some interest in places like that.

Lots of good advice!

Thank you!

[Former_Member]

I think your watermarks are OK. They're noticeable, but not distracting from the picture. They wouldn't keep me from using your photos in a treasury. If you can use a lower resolution for your main photo though it's probably a good idea.

Promote anywhere you can! Start a twitter page for your shop, post to facebook.., there's a lot of things you can do. If you want to get into more treasuries, make a few yourself. You could also start a blog, you could blog about the photos you've taken, places you're going, or pretty much anything you want.

[ZehOriginalArt]

I use watermarks on all my images and they are used in LOTS of treasuries!

I put them in a lower corner and make them semi-transparent, so they are not distracting, but I would not put my images online without them.

[Former_Member]

Maybe it's just me, but I don't worry about photos being stolen (I used to sell photography on Etsy also). For one thing, the quality of images when uploading onto Etsy is quite low. Right-clicking and printing it out is not going to get the same image quality that your sending a high-resoluation image to print is going to get.

Besides, anyone willing to settle for a low-resoluation print clearly doesn't know the difference between poor quality and high quality prints, so probably wouldn't have purchased your item anyway.

At the very least, if someone does save a copy to their desktop, it's a constant reminder of how awesome your work is and they just might come back to buy a large print for their home. So hey... free advertising!

[Former_Member]

Oh and good point Chris made about not getting into treasuries w/ a watermark. So you're actually losing out on free advertising in that case. I'd take them off if I were you - or at the very least make a more transparent corner watermark so it's not right in the middle of the image. They way you have them now is pretty distracting and cheap-looking.

[Former_Member]

I think that photography and jewelry are probably the two most difficult categories on Etsy.

I agree with it being tough to make it into treasuries with a watermark. They're just too distracting, but I like your idea of doing the lower-res featured photo so that people were less likely to take it.

Have you also tried contacting your local newspaper? My dad is a photographer and other than his regular photo work, he does work for a few newspapers. I know he's done the full spectrum of topics....sports, nature...politics, etc. It helps to get his name out there in the public. People will search him and then he gets business for model photos, baby photos and the occasional wedding.

Years ago, he started out sending them some of his local nature photos and a portfolio with permission for them to publish the photos without giving him money. This also helped get his foot in the door.

I'd also suggest looking into magazines....car mags, animal mags, hobbyist mags. Contact them to find out if they will accept high-res photos and what they will pay you if they're published.

Good luck!!

[Former_Member]

because you sell photographs, I wouldn't recommend removing them. But you can maybe make them not as obvious. But to protect your product, since your product is your images, I wouldn't get rid of them all the way.

[GothicGraceJewelry]

I would rather see your pictures in high resolution with watermarks than in low res without. I watermark all my photos. Treasuries or not I think it's a must online. In my opinion, yours are very well done-not distracting at all.

[Former_Member]

I struggled with the watermark question myself. For the time being, I'm just sticking with low res photos for listings, high for prints. I don't know how likely it is that my work would be featured in any front page treasury, but I just couldn't get over how the watermarks looked on my listings. Even small ones bothered me.

[NulionPhoto]

These are all great comments, thank you :)

Last thing I wanted was for the watermarks to be cheap or distracting, so I'll definitely be fixing this one up one way or another. It's interesting how divided everyone is on whether to have the watermarks or not. Watermarks are TRICKY, and I recall spending at least a week and a half trying to figure out how to do it tastefully (Not being glaring and obnoxious) without losing the reason I'm doing it in the first place (Obscuring important parts of the photo that make it very difficult to replicate), but while still not letting the thing hide the important parts of the photo from buyers. Talk about a tricky situation!

I've seen others display repeating watermarks in VERY distracting and annoying patterns all over their photos, but not here on Etsy. Corner watermarks work nicely and look very cool...but they can easily be cropped out.

I am thinking about going with the lower resolution image, AND keeping the higher-resolution watermarked image. That way you get a smaller view of what the thing looks like unobstructed, and a larger, more detailed view, but with a watermark. Best of both worlds, no?

I swear, trying to find a happy medium can drive a guy nuts sometimes :)

As for promoting...again, wonderful ideas! I think to start with, I'll go along with the idea mentioned earlier about reaching to blogs, reaching to forums, places where enthusiasts of my subject matter gather...Try a little targeted advertising. The other part with newspapers and such? That's a bit more advanced, or so it feels...Guess I've just gotta ease on into things gradually, and hope for the best!

For now, I've got two large posters I made that are currently up against the glass on a street shop nearby, that is frequented by pedestrians. It's got all my information on it, along with sample photos and the like.

But yeah, we'll see what happens as it comes!

I've got a lot to think about, and a lot of work to do getting all of this set up :)

Thanks again everyone!! You guys give me the strength to keep going, I swear it. :)

[Former_Member]

I keep all my stuff watermarked and only put up low-resolution photos; I have a lot of experience with graphic design and it's fairly easy to remove watermarks. Some people may not love my method of watermarking, but I feel it's in my best interest to watermark my work. I also watermark the photos of my vintage items; this way if I get pinned on pinterest they can trace the picture back to me at some point.

[NulionPhoto]

Aha Nicolette, that kind of watermarking right there was the kind I mentioned that I hadn't seen on Etsy before. But interestingly, your watermarking is *NOT* what I would call obnoxious. It's obvious you put careful thought into where the watermarks were, and did not indiscriminately splash them all over the photos for the sake of them being unprintable.

You have some very beautiful work, I might add!

Now, I do have a question; what resolution are the photos that you use?

[Former_Member]

All my stuff is 72 dpi; I send 300dpi images when they buy the work. It takes a lot more work to make something use ableout of a 72dpi image than just removing a watermark. I also use photoshop for my watermark & created my own; I use a neutral gray color and in my layer style I use a few blending options & set my general blending to "normal" mode @ 50%; I feel it looks more invisable while being enough of an issue that most people will just avoid stealing it all together.

Thanks, Brandon; i love doing this sort of work, so much better than the 'real world' sort fo work. I like your work, too, some great photographs you have!

[SharonsCompendium]

When I make a treasury, the watermark on photos does influence my decision whether to include something. It all depends on how it looks in the thumbnail. Brandon, in your photos, in some instances it is totally inconspicuous, and in others It is definitely an obstacle, as far as I'm concerned. I like it when photographers put their watermark near the bottom or in a lower corner, like a signature. It's still in the photo, but it doesn't show up in the thumbnail.

I have to agree with those who say that keeping the resolution at 72 dpi should also be a deterrent to someone stealing your work. If they really can't tell the difference in quality, then they're probably not your customer anyway. But you could still watermark those images, just put it in the lower corner so it doesn't show up in the thumbnail, and so wouldn't interfere with someone's decision to include it in a treasury.

As far as promoting by joining teams, I agree that if you join a team and list your items and (figuratively) hold up your sign saying "ME ME ME" you will not stand out in the crowd. But if you understand the concept of teams (and treasuries, and favoriting, and circles, etc.) as being for mutual promotion, then you will take an active interest in the other members of the team and look at their items and favorite them when you like something and include some of them in treasuries, etc. When you do that, you will notice who reciprocates, and you can then focus on fostering those relationships and, I do believe, in so doing, you do promote your shop by promoting others.

[NulionPhoto]

Most of my work, including the watermarked photos of mine, are at a current resolution of 300 dpi, and the one I'm currently looking at (I haven't made a listing for it yet) has a pixel size of 4277x2829 pixels. Big photos! 72 dpi sounds good though, but I'm not sure what I oughtta shrink the canvas size down to in order to not make it look like a complete mess.

I made my logo in Photoshop, too :) Found a few neat fonts, spent awhile mixing and goofing around trying to come up with something nice, and what's on my shop currently is the result. It was a lot of fun, if frustrating, but the end result feels worth it! Much more fun than "real world" work, I completely agree :)

And thank you Sharon, you caught me just as I posted the above message! The reason why in some of the photos the watermark is more of an obstacle is because the watermark actually got "lost" among the background of the photo in some instances, which kinda defeated the purpose of having a watermark in the first place. I'll admit, some photos (Like the "Velaster" photo I have in there) have the watermark as being WAY too clear and too visible. It does block the image, and it's a problem I'm going to be addressing as soon and as ably as I can.

Hopefully, that'll help get me into a few treasuries! ...And to be honest, I've gotten into one, and it made me feel all giddy. It was a lot of fun! I really ought to make some of them, myself. :)

As for the comment about posting in teams, your point on how to interact with a team, to participate and mingle rather than solely and soullessly advertise, is a very good point. That's how I *imagined* it works, since if I were a random guy looking at all these threads, I'd probably pass one by if it looked simply like an ad.

What I'm hoping for is exactly what you'd mentioned; that by adding more to my favorites and circles and such, that more people see I take an interest in their work, and so they take an interest in mine. Which works out nicely, because I've seen quite a bit that I can't *NOT* look at and favorite.

[Former_Member]

I would probably shrink it down to 1/4.5 of what you currently have; it should put it around 228*150 @ 72 dpi. Also, don;t be afraid to move your logo & even use multiple logos. Personally, I like getting featured in treasuries, it feels great; but I've never had any sales from any of the treasuries I'm featured in.

[NulionPhoto]

Okay!

As a test...I've changed the resolution on one of the photos. No watermark. The second photo still has a watermark on it; it's the one that was originally the "cover image" for the listing.

The problem is that the watermarked image now feels kinda...redundant, doesn't it?

I'll leave this here for a little while, for some feedback :)

https://www.etsy.com/listing/103282157/macaw-parrot-photo-blue-and-gold-8-x-10

[SharonsCompendium]

Hey, Brandon. I think this looks good. I agree that the second photo does seem kind of redundant, until I clicked on each of them and saw that I could examine the details much better on the second one.

Your image of the framed picture on the tree looks cool, but I would encourage you to also show it on a plain wall, to help people picture what it might look like on their wall. Actually, not just on a plain wall, but with some other object in the photo that helps give a sense of its size, like a few books on a table or desk with the picture hanging just above it. Even though you state the size and it's a common one and we all know what that is, it still helps to imagine it on one's own wall if it has that context.

Not that you should go back and take another picture of each one of your listings to do that! But something to think about for future listings, perhaps.

[NulionPhoto]

I believe someone, maybe even you (I can't recall for the life of me!), commented on that in some other thread awhile ago, and I hadn't given it too much thought until now, but you're right; some of the pics could use an indoor touch, I suppose :)

It's something to consider!

Still tryin' to think of ways to make that second, high-res photo less redundant-feeling though.

I was thinking of putting some text at the bottom that encourages the viewer to zoom in for higher detail...hmm.

[NulionPhoto]

Okay, I made a tweak to the watermarked photo now (Can't thank you guys enough for bearing with me through this!)

https://www.etsy.com/listing/103282157/macaw-parrot-photo-blue-and-gold-8-x-10

Makes it feel less redundant, I hope :)

[ZehOriginalArt]

The second image does seem redundant - I'm not sure a buyer would know what to make of it.

I list all my images at 1000px on the longest side and at 72 dpi. For online images, there is no reason to go higher than 72 dpi. Anything more is for printing the work out. It makes the web page take longer to load in any case.

I do put a watermark on all my online images, but not so much that people won't steal it (although I hope they don't). It is more so that if the photo is shared, my info is on there if anyone wants to find me.

[Former_Member]

I avoid putting items with watermarks in my treasuries unless they are very faint marks. I think it interferes with the look of treasury.