Help. Buyer wants refund

[#1]

Hey,

So I'll explain what happened.

Buyer emails asking about tracking because an item sent on the 15th hasn't arrived yet and that she needs it for this Friday (today is the 26th). I explain that i don't provide tracking automatically (optional upgrade at checkout) and that it's probably stuck in customs. She asks why would it be stuck in customs so I told her the item is coming from the UK. She says she didn't know that (even though it says so on my page) and then messages me again demanding a refund because clearly the parcel is lost. I told her that it's been less than 2 weeks which isn't enough time for the parcel to arrive and that it wasn't my fault if she wasn't aware the parcel was coming from the UK.

She messages me back saying if it hasn't arrived in time for Friday she's going to file a claim and get her money back. I told her I would happily offer a refund once she returns it to me. She refuses saying it's unfair, that I don't provide tracking and that it's fault the item hasn't arrived.

I suspect she will file a claim and get her money back even if the item arrives after her event.

[Former_Member]

You are both strong willed women locked in battle, both determined to win and neither one willing to compromise.

This may not end as well as you would like. Is the heated battle worth it? Is it worth the inflexible "she is wrong" stance? There are times when providing over-the-top customer service and letting go of the need to win is better for your business as well as your own mental health.

Words from a Wise Old Woman.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Hey

In every instance before this I have happily easily refunded the person or sent out a replacement.

However when it became clear that I was dealing with a very rude, demanding, unreasonable woman who when she realised she made a mistake in not ordering from a shop in the USA made it very clear she was going to demand her money back immediately.

I will not placate people who think it ok to demand, bawl and shout, scream and to start being rude when they know they made a mistake and refuse to take responsibility for it. We live in a society where people don't want to take responsibility for their own actions. I don't believe in entertaining this idea. Espeicially when a buyer is rude to me and is being unreasonable. So no I will not give into her demands. By doing so, would be to endorse her rudeness. She may even pull the same trick with other sellers, knowing if she screams loud enough she will get her way.

[Former_Member]

I agree, rude customers have always had very little success with me, I learned that a long time ago when I work retail management. Yelling and screaming does not work with me, but if your polite or explain what happened, it's much more likley ti work. I can understand being upset that you ordered something and it hasn't arrived for an event, but if you then decide that being rude is your next course of action, then thats all on you. And if the item was for her wedding, what in the sam h--- is she doing waiting until so close to the event to order it?!? But then again, when I order something shipped to me for an event, I err on the side of caution and try to give myself 4 weeks, just in case! I hope PayPal sides with you, it sounds more like somebody trying to get something for free than an actual bridal meltdown!

[Center9402]

Hi, to be clear for you about PayPal.
- Is your product custom made? If Yes, don't worry.
- Did she can proof that she did not receive item? If she can't, don't worry.
- You have link where you can show to PayPal your shipping policy? If yes, don't worry.
- Do you have proof (document from your mail) you sent to her? If yes, don't worry.
And finally, if she give a proof to PayPal from her post office that item is lost in transit, worry, because PayPal will charge you and refund to her.

[MobileSuncatchers]

What a nightmare!!!

Deal with her only through paypal and stop all other correspondence with her. Indicate to her not to contact you again. If she does Etsy will deal with her. But please don't be rude to her (though she may deserve it). Let her jump by herself don't join in.
I wish you luck with it all.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Hey,

Well by my own admission I was slightly rude to her when I was able to produce the proof of posting. She was claiming that I clearly hadn't sent the item and that therefore I owed her a refund. When she realised I did have proof of posting and sent her it, and she started claiming my proof of posting was illegal I lost it at that point as she was saying she wasn't going to accept anything that had handwriting on it (I use a service where I fill in a form with the details of items being sent and hand it to the post office who send the items for me and stamp the form once sent, it means I can just drop the boxes off and collect the receipts later so I don't have to wait around, saves me HOURS) . I told her 'what?! You next going to claim I stole the post office stamp?'. It was clear by that point, whatever logic and reason and fairness I had shown her was too polite, she was going to try and grab onto anything no matter how ridiculous. In all, she made herself look stupid as Etsy admin messaged me saying yeah she can say that if she wants.... It won't get her anywhere.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

So PayPal refunded her. I am frankly gobsmacked.

[MobileSuncatchers]

OMG are you serious!!!!????

Did they deduct from your account?

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Yeah, they deducted the refund from my PayPal account which left it in negative balance equal to the items value and postage and then took money from my bank account to cover the negative debt.

[Former_Member]

Where is the item? Are you getting it back? I'm sorry this happened.

[MobileSuncatchers]

Amy I'm so sorry this has happened.
I can't believe paypal decision nor action. Is their decision final?
I would be livid as I'm sure you are.
Is it possible to complain to paypal about their biased decision? Not sure if you would want to...
You may want to info Etsy and see if you can get that person banned from the site.

[RomaMiaTradingCo]

Unfortunately PayPal sides with the buyer. And since she was acting like an angel with PayPal, I'm unfortunately not surprised.

I'm sorry that this has happened.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Thank you for the sympathy, it's appreciated.

It's highlighted a massive issue though. We can set our own shop policies, but at the end of the day, what does it matter. Whatever PayPals policies are, they trump your own shop policies. In a way, we are less in control of our shop as a result.

[RomaMiaTradingCo]

Yeah, that aspect does ultimately suck.

I always debate between using paypal and not using paypal.

The only reason I use it is because about 1/2 of my customers pay via paypal.

I don't want to use paypal cause of issues like this, plus I had an incident via my personal paypal account and someone was able to break into it, buy a $800 ipad with it, and caused a ton of issues for me as a result. So, my trust is shaky with paypal. That, and I always think it will be easier to have my money funneled through one venue instead of paypal and etsy.

So I guess if you don't want your policies over written no longer use paypal

[maydaylabels]

nikki, it is not a problem as long as you have shipping that tracks your products; it's hard for people from other countries where tracking is pricier, but for US sellers, it's not hard or a burden - paypal will only refund the buyer in a non-delivery case if the item is not scanned as delivered.

[Former_Member]

Did they ever send the item back to you? Did I miss that part?

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Hey,
Yes I no longer use PayPal anymore.

No they didn't send the parcel back to me. If they did that then they'd have to admit that the parcel wasn't ever lost. And this lady given she wouldn't admit her mistake in the first place is hardly going to do that.

Thing is I am not a U.S. Seller which is where the problem started (the buyer thought I was). And because tracking is expensive I made it clear in my policies that if people want tracking they have to buy it as an optional upgrade. Which is I think fair, if you buy from my store and choose not to buy tracking then you should be held responsible for losses. But PayPal doesn't see it that way. If I included tracking as standard shipping would be around the same price as the items I sell and so I'd lose my customers as most of them are American..

[Former_Member]

Its a tough one, I tend to ask the customer if they would like shipping upgrades just as a way to prompt them for my more expensive bespoke items I insist on it.
the ones that still want it will buy it no matter what.

[MobileSuncatchers]

I heart bombed your shop Amy.
It's time for your fortunes to change!

[Former_Member]

What a horrible experience and thank you for sharing so we all know what could happen to us regarding Paypal. I will say though that for EVERY sale I make I contact the buyer by email and let them know the approximate shipping time and if it is leaving the country give them an extra warning about delivery times. I don't make so many sales in a month that this kind of contact is a burden and it definitely can clear up some issues before they come back and haunt.

We are all older and wiser for your post.

[maydaylabels]

Again, if you purchase tracking (and insurance, or self-insure) this is not a problem.

Paypal will not refund the buyer if you have proof of delivery. In this case I understand it is hard for an international seller to purchase tracking, as it increases the shipping cost by a lot, so here is what I would do (and it is what we do, anyway): self-insure.

Because your items are, as far as I can tell, not custom, you can resell them if the customer returns them.

Here is how I would have handled this situation: you ship on the 15th, the customer messages you and says she didn't realize you were in the UK and she needed the item for an event on the 26th (and it won't arrive in time). I would say,

"hey, that's unfortunate! Here is how to tell where a seller is from when you are purchasing: (describe how to see it). When you receive the package, send it back to me and I'll issue a refund (minus shipping if you feel like it, with shipping if you have it built into your self-insurance). "

You can continue to use paypal, just build into your pricing a small amount to account for the occasional disaster (since you can't buy tracking). Say add 20 cents to each overseas shipping cost. If this happens to one in 200 overseas shipments (we find a much smaller failure rate, more like one in 500), then you're self-insured for a $40 sale and when something like this happens, you can just refund and be done with it and not be out any $.

It's like having the buyer pay for the coverage that tracking provides with paypal, but without actually getting the tracking.

[LeNidDeFleurs]

Hey,

Thanks for the response and thank you Fernanda.

I did tell her I would happily issue her a full refund once she returned the item to me. However she said that wasn't good enough. She then said that 'it's not a case of the item not arriving, it's not arrived. Period.' Less than two weeks after shipment, and she therefore was 'going to claim the item as lost and get a refund', again this is less than two weeks after shipping. As you can probably tell, she wasn't being fair or reasonable.

I will take on board what you have said regards the small price increase on postage, as I actually charge less than what postage actually costs and therefore my shipping policies don't include be price of shipping materials. So it seems fair to give maybe a dollar increase on postage.

[maydaylabels]

Ah, that sucks! In that case it's one of those freak occurrences with a truly dishonest customer.

I"m pretty sure Etsy just requires proof of shipment, not necessarily delivery, for international items, but I'm not 100% sure.